6 ms·

This is really no different than what other countries do, e.g. US border officials extensively questioning foreigners or asking for usernames and passwords for

by fy20 4y ago

This is really no different than what other countries do, e.g. US border officials extensively questioning foreigners or asking for usernames and passwords for social media. As a visitor you have to abide by the law of the country, which may be different from your own country, and whose interpretation may be stretched by border control at the point of entry. The only difference here is that they were able to build an app to do all the tracking in plain sight. I'm sure governments in the US and Europe would love to be able to force all visitors to install a similar app.

revolutukr 4y ago
> The only difference here is that they were able to build an app to do all the tracking in plain sight. I'm sure governments in the US and Europe would love to be able to force all visitors to install a similar app. Yet, we do not because unlike in Qatar, the UAE and other religious dictatorships, we are a democracy and we have the ability to change our government. You can do better than whatbouatism.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  - revolutukr 4y ago
    There is no way to answer your trolling without a significant amount of sarcasm. Good day to you.
    - curiousgal 4y ago
      The US is a flawed democracy[0]. You're acting like the US invented democracy and is a champion of freedom and acceptance which is confidently wrong. Try growing up as a gay kid in the bible belt. It won't be so different from doing so in Qatar. 0.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
      - revolutukr 4y ago
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- greendude29 4y ago
  "It's okay when we commit the same immoral acts that authoritarians commit because we're a democracy" American democracy commits heinous crimes across the world. Being a democracy doesn't absolve them of the moral degeneracy.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    He's right about the whataboutism though.
    - greendude29 4y ago
      Right on
    - quetzthecoatl 4y ago
      he is right, but raising whataboutism isn't an argument. It's absolutely valid to point out immoral doings of the very people who are doing the accusations. Otherwise, it's a race to make the accusations and the first one wins - everyone else is whataboutism. You can easily see who came up with the inane whatboutism - the one who did a whole lot of crimes in the past, and wants to judge others now for similar crimes.
      - llanowarelves 4y ago
        Yep. It's an inversion so that you're the bad guy for taking a look at the ledger you both (implicitly or explicitly) agreed to use. Variations of: "Hey can I get back that $50 I lent you? I always pay you back and thought we had a mutual understanding, what gives?" "Nice whataboutism, quit trying to make it about me."
        themitigating 4y ago
        You example doesn't make sense for this situation. It's between two people and things they did. However, The OP isn't the US government and hasn't committed war crimes (I assume). Also your example isn't even whataboutism which is defined as "the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue." What other accusation or difficult question is being raised in your example? It's person A asking for money he lent to person B back and pointing out what when person B lent him money he paid it back.
- snehk 4y ago
  There is no political party in the US that is against the rigorous collection of private information of people entering the country. Biometric data, social media account disclosure, excessive questioning by the TSA. You literally have no option to change any of this.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > You literally have no option to change any of this. I'm guessing you only figuratively mean literally. You have the option of starting your own party that does care about privacy (and then voting for yourself), and you have the option of "contributing to the election campaigns of" (i.e. bribing) politicians who will then vote for legislation you want. More practically, you can campaign within an existing party (presumably the Democrats) for them to support electoral reform (e.g. RCV or Approval Voting, at least for state elections) so that new parties can emerge, and so that the existing parties become more reflective of the actual wishes of voters.
- truemotive 4y ago
  Yes, I too enjoy my decision on a daily basis as to whether I prefer Pepsi or Coke.
ryandrake 4y ago
> This is really no different than what other countries do, e.g. US border officials extensively questioning foreigners or asking for usernames and passwords for social media. I’ve never encountered this when crossing a border and don’t even know how I would sensibly answer any of this. I don’t use social media and don’t travel with a smart phone. So what now? Would they make me buy one in the airport and sign up for Facebook there?
- rwmj 4y ago
  It's definitely a thing. I believe ESTA now asks for all social media user names (not passwords, but I suppose the US government doesn't need those), and it is definitely a requirement for getting a US visa.
  - boyter 4y ago
    They ask but it’s not a requirement to fill it in.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Remember that entry into the USA for a foreigner is entirely at the mercy of the border control officers. If they deem you "suspicious", they can refuse you access, and you don't really have any appeal.
    - lkramer 4y ago
      The made it mandatory in 2020: https://estatousa.com/esta-social-media-question/ https://estatousa.com/esta-social-media-question/
      - mahkeiro 4y ago
        My wife just filled an ESTA and it was still optional.
      - kybernetikos 4y ago
        According to https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/faq?lang=en https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/faq?lang=en it's optional in the esta although they remind you that they can reject for any reason.
colordrops 4y ago
Does being similar excuse it somehow? Behavior by customs at the US border is abhorrent as well.
- onethought 4y ago
  Yes. I think it does excuse it. If the US does X and expects everyone to accept it. Then Country Y doing X is excused… how else could it be? Any other way leads to disadvantage of Country Y
  - lmz 4y ago
    Applying this logic to X="wiping out its native population and taking their land" and Y=China just gets me downvotes around here sadly
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      The original point was that if a country is doing something now, that can be an excuse for another country doing the same thing now. If you want to extend your excuse to "a country did something bad 50 / 100 / 500 / 1000 years ago (and later regretted it)" then you need to provide extra reasoning for why that still works as an excuse for what a country is doing now. Edit: I'm guessing from the downvotes that I didn't make my comment clear enough (or I didn't understand the comment I was responding to). My intent was to point out the logical gap in an argument that could be seen as justifying China's genocidal policies.
    - onethought 4y ago
      That's taking it way out of context of the original point. There isn't a lot of evidence of China doing that (your X). I expect Xinjiang will jump to front of mind for people, that is largely a "Mass Incarceration of an ethnic group"... which while not at all what my original point was, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy from the US here... But unlike travel restrictions, I don't think my original point holds.
Arn_Thor 4y ago
It is different. A user can change their social media passwords and device after entering the country (sure, you can be stopped by border patrol anywhere, but that's relatively "rare"). The overreach takes place in a limited time and place, when entering the country, and aside from the data-harvesting concern can be counteracted afterwards to prevent future tracking. This app is a pocket spy that you're mandated to keep that pocket spy on your device throughout your entire stay.
lawn 4y ago
US has infamously heinous border controls, what they do should not be the acceptable way. It also doesn't excuse that other countries behave in similar and disgusting ways.

by fy20 4y ago

revolutukr 4y ago

> The only difference here is that they were able to build an app to do all the tracking in plain sight. I'm sure governments in the US and Europe would love to be able to force all visitors to install a similar app. Yet, we do not because unlike in Qatar, the UAE and other religious dictatorships, we are a democracy and we have the ability to change our government. You can do better than whatbouatism.

curiousgal 4y ago
- revolutukr 4y ago
  There is no way to answer your trolling without a significant amount of sarcasm. Good day to you.
  - curiousgal 4y ago
    The US is a flawed democracy[0]. You're acting like the US invented democracy and is a champion of freedom and acceptance which is confidently wrong. Try growing up as a gay kid in the bible belt. It won't be so different from doing so in Qatar. 0.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
    - revolutukr 4y ago
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
greendude29 4y ago
"It's okay when we commit the same immoral acts that authoritarians commit because we're a democracy" American democracy commits heinous crimes across the world. Being a democracy doesn't absolve them of the moral degeneracy.
- themitigating 4y ago
  He's right about the whataboutism though.
  - greendude29 4y ago
    Right on
  - quetzthecoatl 4y ago
    he is right, but raising whataboutism isn't an argument. It's absolutely valid to point out immoral doings of the very people who are doing the accusations. Otherwise, it's a race to make the accusations and the first one wins - everyone else is whataboutism. You can easily see who came up with the inane whatboutism - the one who did a whole lot of crimes in the past, and wants to judge others now for similar crimes.
    - llanowarelves 4y ago
      Yep. It's an inversion so that you're the bad guy for taking a look at the ledger you both (implicitly or explicitly) agreed to use. Variations of: "Hey can I get back that $50 I lent you? I always pay you back and thought we had a mutual understanding, what gives?" "Nice whataboutism, quit trying to make it about me."
      - themitigating 4y ago
        You example doesn't make sense for this situation. It's between two people and things they did. However, The OP isn't the US government and hasn't committed war crimes (I assume). Also your example isn't even whataboutism which is defined as "the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue." What other accusation or difficult question is being raised in your example? It's person A asking for money he lent to person B back and pointing out what when person B lent him money he paid it back.
snehk 4y ago
There is no political party in the US that is against the rigorous collection of private information of people entering the country. Biometric data, social media account disclosure, excessive questioning by the TSA. You literally have no option to change any of this.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > You literally have no option to change any of this. I'm guessing you only figuratively mean literally. You have the option of starting your own party that does care about privacy (and then voting for yourself), and you have the option of "contributing to the election campaigns of" (i.e. bribing) politicians who will then vote for legislation you want. More practically, you can campaign within an existing party (presumably the Democrats) for them to support electoral reform (e.g. RCV or Approval Voting, at least for state elections) so that new parties can emerge, and so that the existing parties become more reflective of the actual wishes of voters.
truemotive 4y ago
Yes, I too enjoy my decision on a daily basis as to whether I prefer Pepsi or Coke.

ryandrake 4y ago

> This is really no different than what other countries do, e.g. US border officials extensively questioning foreigners or asking for usernames and passwords for social media. I’ve never encountered this when crossing a border and don’t even know how I would sensibly answer any of this. I don’t use social media and don’t travel with a smart phone. So what now? Would they make me buy one in the airport and sign up for Facebook there?

rwmj 4y ago
It's definitely a thing. I believe ESTA now asks for all social media user names (not passwords, but I suppose the US government doesn't need those), and it is definitely a requirement for getting a US visa.
- boyter 4y ago
  They ask but it’s not a requirement to fill it in.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Remember that entry into the USA for a foreigner is entirely at the mercy of the border control officers. If they deem you "suspicious", they can refuse you access, and you don't really have any appeal.
  - lkramer 4y ago
    The made it mandatory in 2020: https://estatousa.com/esta-social-media-question/ https://estatousa.com/esta-social-media-question/
    - mahkeiro 4y ago
      My wife just filled an ESTA and it was still optional.
    - kybernetikos 4y ago
      According to https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/faq?lang=en https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/faq?lang=en it's optional in the esta although they remind you that they can reject for any reason.

colordrops 4y ago

Does being similar excuse it somehow? Behavior by customs at the US border is abhorrent as well.

onethought 4y ago
Yes. I think it does excuse it. If the US does X and expects everyone to accept it. Then Country Y doing X is excused… how else could it be? Any other way leads to disadvantage of Country Y
- lmz 4y ago
  Applying this logic to X="wiping out its native population and taking their land" and Y=China just gets me downvotes around here sadly
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    The original point was that if a country is doing something now, that can be an excuse for another country doing the same thing now. If you want to extend your excuse to "a country did something bad 50 / 100 / 500 / 1000 years ago (and later regretted it)" then you need to provide extra reasoning for why that still works as an excuse for what a country is doing now. Edit: I'm guessing from the downvotes that I didn't make my comment clear enough (or I didn't understand the comment I was responding to). My intent was to point out the logical gap in an argument that could be seen as justifying China's genocidal policies.
  - onethought 4y ago
    That's taking it way out of context of the original point. There isn't a lot of evidence of China doing that (your X). I expect Xinjiang will jump to front of mind for people, that is largely a "Mass Incarceration of an ethnic group"... which while not at all what my original point was, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy from the US here... But unlike travel restrictions, I don't think my original point holds.

Arn_Thor 4y ago

It is different. A user can change their social media passwords and device after entering the country (sure, you can be stopped by border patrol anywhere, but that's relatively "rare"). The overreach takes place in a limited time and place, when entering the country, and aside from the data-harvesting concern can be counteracted afterwards to prevent future tracking. This app is a pocket spy that you're mandated to keep that pocket spy on your device throughout your entire stay.

lawn 4y ago

US has infamously heinous border controls, what they do should not be the acceptable way. It also doesn't excuse that other countries behave in similar and disgusting ways.