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There is no such thing as forgiveness for loans - its always paid by someone. This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to p

There is no such thing as forgiveness for loans - its always paid by someone. This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to people who - on average - did not go to college. The most regressive invisible tax hike we have ever had but sure. . . yay.

maxfurman 4y ago
Is this so different from the PPP loans that were forgiven?
- junofan 4y ago
  Probably different accounting treatment. I believe the student loan program is run by issuing treasuries, so the subsidies are the main expense.
- zapdrive 4y ago
  Are you comparing loans given to businesses to stay afloat during a government mandated shutdown of an unprecedented scale where those businesses were forbidden by the government to do business, to the free will of students taking a loan understanding very well the consequences of their decision?
  - bern4444 4y ago
    Much of the PPP loans taken were fraudulent, wasteful, unnecessary and inflationary. Businesses who had no need for them took them and had their best quarters and year. The market sloshed around and shot up with all this 'free' money. We're willing to spend all this money unnecessarily on businesses but when it comes to supporting students all of a sudden - its too much and we have to draw the line! I'd much rather see individuals paid directly than go through businesses and hope they are benevolent enough to use it on their employees.
- pb7 4y ago
  There is overwhelming evidence that most of those were loans were fraudulent so yeah, it’s not any different, that was bullshit too.
- AmVess 4y ago
  How is it similar? Businesses that employ people and generate tax revenue vs someone with a gender studies degree that will never add value to anything or anyone but the institution that charged them $150k for the degree.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  Main frustration with PPP is that gov did not prosecute fraudsters aggressively enough. The bases of the programs are very different.
qbasic_forever 4y ago
Heaven forbid a country invest in the education of its people. What a terrible no good idea, we should definitely be putting that money into pumping business or other interests.
- OrangeMonkey 4y ago
  You must have assumed I was against it - I am not sure why. I am just pointing out that there is no forgiveness, the education expenses incurred by college graduates is now being paid by blue collar workers, and its the most regressive tax we have ever had. That doesn't mean I am against it. I just want folks to know that the person paying your college off is a guy who wishes he could have gone to college.
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Complete nonsense, there's no tax increase for anyone to fund this work. We're buying like 10 less missile systems from Raytheon on a tab of defense spending 100k items long to fund stuff like this. It's a complete nonissue and you're just trying to make some bizarre emotional appeal.
- haswell 4y ago
  This is the thing that gets me. We collectively invest in a large number of things that may not directly benefit us. My tax dollars fund programs that primarily benefit people that need the money due to choices I personally never would have made. But that’s the point of a social system. The moment that collective investment is about education or healthcare, people seem to apply an entirely different ruleset.
  - sigzero 4y ago
    That isn't what this is though is it? This is people voluntarily taking loans to fund their education and now getting that paid off with other peoples money. With that logic, when are they paying my mortgage or credit card bills off which are also voluntary debt? I an all for investing in education. This is not that.
lapcat 4y ago
> transferring the debt from people who graduated college One correction: Student loan debt is incurred regardless of whether the debtors graduated and received a degree.
lazyasciiart 4y ago
Plenty of people have student loan debt and never graduated college.
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  This FiveThirtyEight article [0] from 2016 explains your point about debt and graduation a bit more, and gives a nice summary of the typical degrees sought by college students in the US. [0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/
vkou 4y ago
> This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to people who - on average - did not go to college. That would only be true if everyone paid the same amount of taxes. We don't. College graduates pay significantly more taxes than non-college graduates. This is largely a wealth transfer from the haves-college graduates to the have-nots college graduates. I'm not sure how you've missed the mark so wildly.
robbiet480 4y ago
And yet we forgave PPP loans which was $742 billion forgiven vs $400 billion for student loan forgiveness. This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who own businesses to people who - on average - do not own businesses. The _actual_ most regressive invisible tax hike we have ever had but sure. . . yay.
- zapdrive 4y ago
  - abrackx 4y ago
    yes
  - sonotathrowaway 4y ago
    This is hilariously slanted.
  - melling 4y ago
    The system doesn’t work if we need to keep subsidizing everyone For example, FEMA subsidizes flood insurance so people can live in flood prone areas. Of course, with climate change, this will cost even more to the taxpayer.
- throwawaywu 4y ago
  I got 87k in PPP loans. It was forgiven, but it all went to my employees. That's a good thing.
  - robbiet480 4y ago
    That’s awesome to hear and is absolutely a good thing! Sadly we’ve also heard a lot of stories of complete misuse and outright fraudulent use of PPP loans. I’m paying for those unless the government gets that money back (after spending hundreds of thousands in legal fees). Whereas as far as I know student loans can’t be misused, at least not to the extent that many PPP loans were.
  - 4y ago
ddlutz 4y ago
I think most people could consider it a one time personal 10k tax deduction.
ssphl 4y ago
That is a pretty big assertion to make: that on average, most of the tax collection over the entire US is paid by non-college graduates.
- someotherpersom 4y ago
  That’s not the assertion they made. They’re average person paying tax didn’t graduate college, which is different from saying that most of the tax revenue is collected from non-college graduates.
  - ssphl 4y ago
    I think revenue matters since we have a progressive tax rate. Taxes are paid on income, not on people.
- ssphl 4y ago
  I guess I will do the napkin math: 39% of Americans graduated college [2] Income of mid-career is 111,000 (college) vs 43,000 (HS) [2] Lifetime increase in earnings is estimated 800,000, paying taxes the whole time. So I think the commenter calling this a one time tax deduction is closer to reality than a "regressive tax". Probably less regressive than the 401Ks many college grads have vs HS. [1] https://money.com/wage-gap-college-high-school-grads/ https://money.com/wage-gap-college-high-school-grads/ [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-of-us-are-college-grads/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-of-us-are-college-grad...
bastawhiz 4y ago
It's truly something when I come to this website and folks are arguing against the government providing assistance to folks burdened by inescapable debt where making payments for decades and paying taxes can land you with even more debt than you started with because of the interest rates. What's supposed to happen? We just throw our hands up and say that the system is irreparably broken and there's nothing to be done? And if this is a tax hike, then where has the 5-15% APR on many of those loans been going this whole time?
- OrangeMonkey 4y ago
  The government isnt providing assistance. This is transferring debt people willingly took on to get a college degree, to people who did not go to college. Look, I am not trying to be rude and I am trying to be gentle when I ask this: Where do you think the 'assistance' the government is going to provide comes from?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    This transfers the debt to the top income earners who pay federal income tax into the general fund. The bottom 60% of Americans, 100 million households, pay no federal income tax. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-no-federal-income-taxes-in-2020-tax-policy-center-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-... > Look, I am not trying to be rude and I am trying to be gentle when I ask this: Where do you think the 'assistance' the government is going to provide comes from? The wealthy and high earners? I pay substantial federal income tax, and I’m not too bent out of shape about this. I’m more concerned about waste going forward, not financial relief for my fellow citizen. The need for this debt would’ve never existed if state and federal funding for higher education had not slowly been withdrawn leaving students primarily to shoulder the cost burden (although I’m mindful of unchecked college spending and the need for cost controls due to the inelastic demand). https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2019-11-04/why-is-college-so-expensive https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-co...
    - 4y ago
webmobdev 4y ago
> This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to people who - on average - did not go to college. There's an easy solution to fix this - tax the rich or super-rich more.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Yes-but the catch is you gotta define “rich” the way Europeans do: about 1.5x the median income. So around $110,000 in the US.

maxfurman 4y ago

Is this so different from the PPP loans that were forgiven?

junofan 4y ago
Probably different accounting treatment. I believe the student loan program is run by issuing treasuries, so the subsidies are the main expense.
zapdrive 4y ago
Are you comparing loans given to businesses to stay afloat during a government mandated shutdown of an unprecedented scale where those businesses were forbidden by the government to do business, to the free will of students taking a loan understanding very well the consequences of their decision?
- bern4444 4y ago
  Much of the PPP loans taken were fraudulent, wasteful, unnecessary and inflationary. Businesses who had no need for them took them and had their best quarters and year. The market sloshed around and shot up with all this 'free' money. We're willing to spend all this money unnecessarily on businesses but when it comes to supporting students all of a sudden - its too much and we have to draw the line! I'd much rather see individuals paid directly than go through businesses and hope they are benevolent enough to use it on their employees.
pb7 4y ago
There is overwhelming evidence that most of those were loans were fraudulent so yeah, it’s not any different, that was bullshit too.
AmVess 4y ago
How is it similar? Businesses that employ people and generate tax revenue vs someone with a gender studies degree that will never add value to anything or anyone but the institution that charged them $150k for the degree.
YeBanKo 4y ago
Main frustration with PPP is that gov did not prosecute fraudsters aggressively enough. The bases of the programs are very different.

qbasic_forever 4y ago

Heaven forbid a country invest in the education of its people. What a terrible no good idea, we should definitely be putting that money into pumping business or other interests.

OrangeMonkey 4y ago
You must have assumed I was against it - I am not sure why. I am just pointing out that there is no forgiveness, the education expenses incurred by college graduates is now being paid by blue collar workers, and its the most regressive tax we have ever had. That doesn't mean I am against it. I just want folks to know that the person paying your college off is a guy who wishes he could have gone to college.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Complete nonsense, there's no tax increase for anyone to fund this work. We're buying like 10 less missile systems from Raytheon on a tab of defense spending 100k items long to fund stuff like this. It's a complete nonissue and you're just trying to make some bizarre emotional appeal.
haswell 4y ago
This is the thing that gets me. We collectively invest in a large number of things that may not directly benefit us. My tax dollars fund programs that primarily benefit people that need the money due to choices I personally never would have made. But that’s the point of a social system. The moment that collective investment is about education or healthcare, people seem to apply an entirely different ruleset.
- sigzero 4y ago
  That isn't what this is though is it? This is people voluntarily taking loans to fund their education and now getting that paid off with other peoples money. With that logic, when are they paying my mortgage or credit card bills off which are also voluntary debt? I an all for investing in education. This is not that.

lapcat 4y ago

> transferring the debt from people who graduated college One correction: Student loan debt is incurred regardless of whether the debtors graduated and received a degree.

lazyasciiart 4y ago

Plenty of people have student loan debt and never graduated college.

SantalBlush 4y ago
This FiveThirtyEight article [0] from 2016 explains your point about debt and graduation a bit more, and gives a nice summary of the typical degrees sought by college students in the US. [0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/

vkou 4y ago

> This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to people who - on average - did not go to college. That would only be true if everyone paid the same amount of taxes. We don't. College graduates pay significantly more taxes than non-college graduates. This is largely a wealth transfer from the haves-college graduates to the have-nots college graduates. I'm not sure how you've missed the mark so wildly.

robbiet480 4y ago

And yet we forgave PPP loans which was $742 billion forgiven vs $400 billion for student loan forgiveness. This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who own businesses to people who - on average - do not own businesses. The _actual_ most regressive invisible tax hike we have ever had but sure. . . yay.

zapdrive 4y ago
- abrackx 4y ago
  yes
- sonotathrowaway 4y ago
  This is hilariously slanted.
- melling 4y ago
  The system doesn’t work if we need to keep subsidizing everyone For example, FEMA subsidizes flood insurance so people can live in flood prone areas. Of course, with climate change, this will cost even more to the taxpayer.
throwawaywu 4y ago
I got 87k in PPP loans. It was forgiven, but it all went to my employees. That's a good thing.
- robbiet480 4y ago
  That’s awesome to hear and is absolutely a good thing! Sadly we’ve also heard a lot of stories of complete misuse and outright fraudulent use of PPP loans. I’m paying for those unless the government gets that money back (after spending hundreds of thousands in legal fees). Whereas as far as I know student loans can’t be misused, at least not to the extent that many PPP loans were.
- 4y ago

ddlutz 4y ago

I think most people could consider it a one time personal 10k tax deduction.

ssphl 4y ago

That is a pretty big assertion to make: that on average, most of the tax collection over the entire US is paid by non-college graduates.

someotherpersom 4y ago
That’s not the assertion they made. They’re average person paying tax didn’t graduate college, which is different from saying that most of the tax revenue is collected from non-college graduates.
- ssphl 4y ago
  I think revenue matters since we have a progressive tax rate. Taxes are paid on income, not on people.
ssphl 4y ago
I guess I will do the napkin math: 39% of Americans graduated college [2] Income of mid-career is 111,000 (college) vs 43,000 (HS) [2] Lifetime increase in earnings is estimated 800,000, paying taxes the whole time. So I think the commenter calling this a one time tax deduction is closer to reality than a "regressive tax". Probably less regressive than the 401Ks many college grads have vs HS. [1] https://money.com/wage-gap-college-high-school-grads/ https://money.com/wage-gap-college-high-school-grads/ [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-of-us-are-college-grads/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-of-us-are-college-grad...

bastawhiz 4y ago

It's truly something when I come to this website and folks are arguing against the government providing assistance to folks burdened by inescapable debt where making payments for decades and paying taxes can land you with even more debt than you started with because of the interest rates. What's supposed to happen? We just throw our hands up and say that the system is irreparably broken and there's nothing to be done? And if this is a tax hike, then where has the 5-15% APR on many of those loans been going this whole time?

OrangeMonkey 4y ago
The government isnt providing assistance. This is transferring debt people willingly took on to get a college degree, to people who did not go to college. Look, I am not trying to be rude and I am trying to be gentle when I ask this: Where do you think the 'assistance' the government is going to provide comes from?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  This transfers the debt to the top income earners who pay federal income tax into the general fund. The bottom 60% of Americans, 100 million households, pay no federal income tax. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-no-federal-income-taxes-in-2020-tax-policy-center-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-... > Look, I am not trying to be rude and I am trying to be gentle when I ask this: Where do you think the 'assistance' the government is going to provide comes from? The wealthy and high earners? I pay substantial federal income tax, and I’m not too bent out of shape about this. I’m more concerned about waste going forward, not financial relief for my fellow citizen. The need for this debt would’ve never existed if state and federal funding for higher education had not slowly been withdrawn leaving students primarily to shoulder the cost burden (although I’m mindful of unchecked college spending and the need for cost controls due to the inelastic demand). https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2019-11-04/why-is-college-so-expensive https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-co...
  - 4y ago

webmobdev 4y ago

> This is, in essence, transferring the debt from people who graduated college to people who - on average - did not go to college. There's an easy solution to fix this - tax the rich or super-rich more.

rayiner 4y ago
Yes-but the catch is you gotta define “rich” the way Europeans do: about 1.5x the median income. So around $110,000 in the US.