4 ms·

People call out tragedy of the commons a lot, for cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism. Nobody overfished these crabs to eat themselves. A g

People call out tragedy of the commons a lot, for cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism. Nobody overfished these crabs to eat themselves. A globalized food market was willing to pay for crab, and has no mechanism to value long term supply. People who think it’s wrong to overfish will stop, and people who don’t care will replace them as long as the market is willing to pay. What part of that requires a “commons” to tragically be uncared for? It’s money + markets. We see the same thing in any “natural resource” - wood, mining, oil, wild mushrooms, ivory, you name it.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism We have evidence the Hudson Bay was being overfished for oysters in the decades preceding European settlement. Any explanation beginning and ending with capitalism is about as useless as blaming every problem on greed.
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  Do you have a link to more on indigenous/pre-colonial overfishing of oysters in Hudson Bay? Google is not turning up anything but contradictory sources for me. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29818-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29818-z https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1600019113 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1600019113 (Trigger warning for you: the Nature Comms article makes contrasts with "capitalist" fisheries)
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > link to more on indigenous/pre-colonial overfishing of oysters in Hudson Bay? Sure! It’s from this book [1]. Decreasing oyster size (implying younger harvests) in New York mounds was explicitly contrasted with the sustainable extraction from the Chesapeake Bay. (None of your sources mention the Hudson.) Better delineation than capitalist and indigenous might be trading and non-trading. > trigger warning This is a needless way to undercut oneself. (It’s also mean.) [1] https://www.amazon.com/Big-Oyster-History-Half-Shell/dp/0345476395\\\\\\ https://www.amazon.com/Big-Oyster-History-Half-Shell/dp/0345...*
    - tomjakubowski 4y ago
      Thanks. You're right, those sources do not mention Hudson Bay, despite my Google search including the words. I should know better. I've recently started enjoying oysters and other shellfish so I'll add the book to my reading list. Looks very interesting! edit: "New York mounds" -- is this about Hudson Bay (the one in Canada) or the Hudson River estuary, in New York? The first source I linked doesn't mention the river either, but second source does claim no prehistoric declines of oyster sizes in the Hudson River estuary. Still going to read the book and then make my up my mind
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > "New York mounds" -- is this about Hudson Bay (the one in Canada) or the Hudson River estuary, in New York? New York, New York. The natives piled mounds of shells. Over generations, these grew formidable [1]. (“Midden” [2]. Pearl Street gets its name from a Lenape midden [3].) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/science/native-americans-shell-middens-maine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/science/native-americans-... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midden [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Street_(Manhattan) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Street_(Manhattan)
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Capitalism has been the dominant economic system for over two hundred years. It is more specifically pertinent to this time and place than some inborn human characteristic or tendency.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Your single example of over-exploitation outside of capitalism doesn’t refute my point at all. Nobody thinks it’s impossible to over-exploit without capitalism, it’s that without capitalism we don’t have a huge incentive to do it, and it happening on a GLOBAL scale. But yeah, ok, some declines in oysters in one body of water.
drks91 4y ago
On other news, Soviet Union destroyed the Aral Sea trying to grow cotton in the desert.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism We have evidence the Hudson Bay was being overfished for oysters in the decades preceding European settlement. Any explanation beginning and ending with capitalism is about as useless as blaming every problem on greed.

tomjakubowski 4y ago
Do you have a link to more on indigenous/pre-colonial overfishing of oysters in Hudson Bay? Google is not turning up anything but contradictory sources for me. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29818-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29818-z https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1600019113 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1600019113 (Trigger warning for you: the Nature Comms article makes contrasts with "capitalist" fisheries)
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > link to more on indigenous/pre-colonial overfishing of oysters in Hudson Bay? Sure! It’s from this book [1]. Decreasing oyster size (implying younger harvests) in New York mounds was explicitly contrasted with the sustainable extraction from the Chesapeake Bay. (None of your sources mention the Hudson.) Better delineation than capitalist and indigenous might be trading and non-trading. > trigger warning This is a needless way to undercut oneself. (It’s also mean.) [1] https://www.amazon.com/Big-Oyster-History-Half-Shell/dp/0345476395\\\\\\ https://www.amazon.com/Big-Oyster-History-Half-Shell/dp/0345...*
  - tomjakubowski 4y ago
    Thanks. You're right, those sources do not mention Hudson Bay, despite my Google search including the words. I should know better. I've recently started enjoying oysters and other shellfish so I'll add the book to my reading list. Looks very interesting! edit: "New York mounds" -- is this about Hudson Bay (the one in Canada) or the Hudson River estuary, in New York? The first source I linked doesn't mention the river either, but second source does claim no prehistoric declines of oyster sizes in the Hudson River estuary. Still going to read the book and then make my up my mind
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > "New York mounds" -- is this about Hudson Bay (the one in Canada) or the Hudson River estuary, in New York? New York, New York. The natives piled mounds of shells. Over generations, these grew formidable [1]. (“Midden” [2]. Pearl Street gets its name from a Lenape midden [3].) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/science/native-americans-shell-middens-maine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/science/native-americans-... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midden [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Street_(Manhattan) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Street_(Manhattan)
avgcorrection 4y ago
Capitalism has been the dominant economic system for over two hundred years. It is more specifically pertinent to this time and place than some inborn human characteristic or tendency.
kennywinker 4y ago
Your single example of over-exploitation outside of capitalism doesn’t refute my point at all. Nobody thinks it’s impossible to over-exploit without capitalism, it’s that without capitalism we don’t have a huge incentive to do it, and it happening on a GLOBAL scale. But yeah, ok, some declines in oysters in one body of water.

drks91 4y ago

On other news, Soviet Union destroyed the Aral Sea trying to grow cotton in the desert.