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Seeing Pinboard's success was really helpful in getting over the sick feeling of charging a sea of free, and I think we're finally seeing a non-trivial amount o

by morisy 15y ago

Seeing Pinboard's success was really helpful in getting over the sick feeling of charging a sea of free, and I think we're finally seeing a non-trivial amount of web users understand that if you're not the customer, you're the product (after they've been burned a time or twelve). Great post, and glad to see a lot of other Hacker Newser following suit.

maximusprime 15y ago
That's a false choice. Using google to search doesn't make me a "product". They just happen to be able to make a ton of money showing adverts, which are useful for me also. Ignore advertising revenue at your own cost. But OTOH, this is hackernews, so continue hating advertising lead business models as usual...
- nik_0_0 15y ago
  It does make you a product. Google can take the millions of you searching for that term and say "hey you people related to that term", and sell them based on the fact that you searched for it an a small percentage of you will click that advertisments. I almost feel that we are lucky that advertisements are more profitable when they are more useful to us, god forbid if A/B testing showed that FULL PAGE FLASHING BANNERS somehow brought in more revenue. No one is ignoring advertising revenue, harvesting millions of users in order to bring in said advertising revenue is the problem.
  - maximusprime 15y ago
    > No one is ignoring advertising revenue, harvesting millions of users in order to bring in said advertising revenue is the problem. Why is it a problem? So they show me a few adverts... big whoop. I can just ignore them. The issue is, the vast majority of people will never pay for access to online websites/apps (Me included). If you restrict yourself to the business model "charge users", then you've just got rid of 99% of the online population. Advertising means that everyone gets what they want (Apart from the very very small but overly vocal minority that don't like adverts or have privacy concerns).
    - LaGrange 15y ago
      "I can just ignore them." Only if you block them. Advertising is not informative, it's coaxing you, and just because you don't consciously decide you're going to read an ad now doesn't mean you get to ignore it.
      - maximusprime 15y ago
        BS. Advertising is useful and informative, and I choose which interest me and which don't. If you can't ignore things that don't interest you, then you have problems. Walk down a city street. It's full of adverts for shops you might want to go in.
        LaGrange 15y ago
        Well, yes, of course I have a problem. That's one of the reasons of why many places put regulations on what kind and amount of ads on streets is allowed. If I didn't have a problem, I wouldn't complain about ads that much. On the other hand, while you claim my previous statement was BS, I claim your statement displays denial.
    - jahewson 15y ago
      But the vast majority of people do pay for online access to ad-funded apps every time they purchase something from a company that runs an ad. I don't imagine Heinz ads make any money from click-throughs, they promote the brand - but Heinz paid for those ads with the money I spent on ketchup last week, which is the only brand in the local store, so it's not like they needed the ad to convince me.
_delirium 15y ago
Unfortunately, there's no way to guarantee that you're not the product without access to financials and inside thinking, even if you're paying. There are plenty of paid services where you're the product, because the people buying your usage data or access to you are paying so much more than you that your revenue is negligible. With many magazines, the only reason they even bother to charge is to prove to advertisers that you're a "serious" reader: they don't care about your subscription fee, but about what it says about your value as a product. This has even led to a weird cat-and-mouse game where magazines try to give away free promotional subscriptions while pretending they charged you, and advertisers respond by demanding that subscription numbers be audited by third parties so magazines have to prove that you "really" paid (and this produces complex legalistic rules about things like whether paying with frequent-flyer miles counts as paying). That's because they really want the "paid subscriber" bit to sell to their advertisers, but don't particularly care about your measly $20.
- terinjokes 15y ago
  Every month I get a magazine. Every month I get a "final notice" that my subscription is up. They generally come within a few days of each other. And yet every month, I get another issue, and another notice. I've longed chalked it up to trying to count me as a subscriber, and it must be working. The kicker is, I've never once paid for this magazine.

by morisy 15y ago

maximusprime 15y ago

That's a false choice. Using google to search doesn't make me a "product". They just happen to be able to make a ton of money showing adverts, which are useful for me also. Ignore advertising revenue at your own cost. But OTOH, this is hackernews, so continue hating advertising lead business models as usual...

nik_0_0 15y ago
It does make you a product. Google can take the millions of you searching for that term and say "hey you people related to that term", and sell them based on the fact that you searched for it an a small percentage of you will click that advertisments. I almost feel that we are lucky that advertisements are more profitable when they are more useful to us, god forbid if A/B testing showed that FULL PAGE FLASHING BANNERS somehow brought in more revenue. No one is ignoring advertising revenue, harvesting millions of users in order to bring in said advertising revenue is the problem.
- maximusprime 15y ago
  > No one is ignoring advertising revenue, harvesting millions of users in order to bring in said advertising revenue is the problem. Why is it a problem? So they show me a few adverts... big whoop. I can just ignore them. The issue is, the vast majority of people will never pay for access to online websites/apps (Me included). If you restrict yourself to the business model "charge users", then you've just got rid of 99% of the online population. Advertising means that everyone gets what they want (Apart from the very very small but overly vocal minority that don't like adverts or have privacy concerns).
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    "I can just ignore them." Only if you block them. Advertising is not informative, it's coaxing you, and just because you don't consciously decide you're going to read an ad now doesn't mean you get to ignore it.
    - maximusprime 15y ago
      BS. Advertising is useful and informative, and I choose which interest me and which don't. If you can't ignore things that don't interest you, then you have problems. Walk down a city street. It's full of adverts for shops you might want to go in.
      - LaGrange 15y ago
        Well, yes, of course I have a problem. That's one of the reasons of why many places put regulations on what kind and amount of ads on streets is allowed. If I didn't have a problem, I wouldn't complain about ads that much. On the other hand, while you claim my previous statement was BS, I claim your statement displays denial.
  - jahewson 15y ago
    But the vast majority of people do pay for online access to ad-funded apps every time they purchase something from a company that runs an ad. I don't imagine Heinz ads make any money from click-throughs, they promote the brand - but Heinz paid for those ads with the money I spent on ketchup last week, which is the only brand in the local store, so it's not like they needed the ad to convince me.

_delirium 15y ago

Unfortunately, there's no way to guarantee that you're not the product without access to financials and inside thinking, even if you're paying. There are plenty of paid services where you're the product, because the people buying your usage data or access to you are paying so much more than you that your revenue is negligible. With many magazines, the only reason they even bother to charge is to prove to advertisers that you're a "serious" reader: they don't care about your subscription fee, but about what it says about your value as a product. This has even led to a weird cat-and-mouse game where magazines try to give away free promotional subscriptions while pretending they charged you, and advertisers respond by demanding that subscription numbers be audited by third parties so magazines have to prove that you "really" paid (and this produces complex legalistic rules about things like whether paying with frequent-flyer miles counts as paying). That's because they really want the "paid subscriber" bit to sell to their advertisers, but don't particularly care about your measly $20.

terinjokes 15y ago
Every month I get a magazine. Every month I get a "final notice" that my subscription is up. They generally come within a few days of each other. And yet every month, I get another issue, and another notice. I've longed chalked it up to trying to count me as a subscriber, and it must be working. The kicker is, I've never once paid for this magazine.