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There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.

by e40 4y ago

knaik94 4y ago
It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers. There are side effects is a bad generalization of all drugs used to treat mental health issues. When I say I am taking beta blockers, most people comment on how I am a bit young to be taking them, but when I was prescribed benzos for the same condition, everyone decided to become my doctor and tell me what I should and shouldn't take. Endless stories about how then knew someone who got addicted to pain killers and became homeless and how they heard benzos are just as bad. I chose to switch off benzos to beta blockers. Doctors and the patient are the best judge for the benefits and risks of living with certain conditions vs being medicated for them. In most cases there aren't side effects.
- anotherman554 4y ago
  "It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers." It not that weird. The brain is the most complicated organ in the human body. Science understands how the kidneys work but largely doesn't understand how the brain works. If you think these drugs are worth trying, I think you should make the argument without these sorts of analogies. "Doctors and the patient are the best judge for the benefits and risks of living with certain conditions vs being medicated for them." Okay, but if you were to follow this advise you should scold anyone who says "People with mental health problems should take drugs..." That's for the doctor and patient to decide, right? But you only scolded the person pushing back at this statement.
  - knaik94 4y ago
    I do. I equally scold anyone that says MDMA or LSD is the cure all of depression. It's not an analogy. There is no mechanical difference between someone using Amphetamines to treat their ADHD and someone using insulin to treat their diabetes. There are just as many external as internal factors that go into how someone can get diabetes and what dosage of insulin they need at a specific moment in time. Science has advanced to a point where diabetes specifically can be monitored easily by a patient. The same is true of hypertension. The difference for mental health issues is that there is no easy quantifiable way to diagnose someone. Every organ is the most complicated organ in the human body, at a certain level every organ has a mechanism science doesn't understand yet. That's not a valid argument. The same is true for pain management. And Multiple Sclerosis. I would suggest you look into the modern state of neurophysiology and neuropsychopharmacology. The "we don't understand" is not true anymore. The reality is that there are so many factors affecting a certain visible outcome that it's hard to specify a root cause. I am not a medical professional, I have only taken some 300 and 400/grad level courses in psychology.
    - ButterBiscuits 4y ago
      > The "we don't understand" is not true anymore. The reality is that there are so many factors affecting a certain visible outcome that it's hard to specify a root cause. That sounds like "we don't understand" except now we slightly better understand how little we understand. We don't even know how Tylenol works.
    - FactoryReboot 4y ago
      “Every organ is the most complicated organ”. No, that’s blatantly untrue. The liver is one of the simpler ones as it’s all single cells, and the brain is definitely the most complex. I’ve never heard anyone say they are equally complex. That doesn’t mean we understand everything about the liver, but we are hell of a lot closer than the brain.
      - knaik94 4y ago
        The liver itself might be simple but the complexity is in the enzyme pathways. The marker of "elevated liver enzymes" doesn't tell us much. Taking a step back, there is only one organ I will admit we understand better than the brain, the heart. It's the only organ where we know enough to replace it with a mechanical counterpart. We don't know enough to make it last a long time, but it's enough to prolong someone's life in a meaningful way.
- blendergeek 4y ago
  That is weird. Diabetes can sometimes be treated with methods other than insulin [0]. I think that these dietary treatments are always a better option than insulin. The same way with high blood pressure. High blood pressure should always be managed by "diet and exercise" before meds are brought in. All of these drugs (diabetes drugs, high blood pressure drugs, heart medication) that are regularly being used to treat lifestyle diseases should be seen as a last resort with the main goal being to help people get to a point where they don't need them.
  - ggm 4y ago
    ... until you hit 55-60 and irreversible changes to your body's hormonal system mean diet and exercise alone cannot control your hypertension, or late onset diabetes. I mean sure. Try. I had 10 years on Hypertension meds, 15 off, and I am back on despite significant weightless and increased physical activity. Idiopathic can happen.
hutzlibu 4y ago
You can also get addicted to pain killers. They still can help, but are surely no long term solution. Antidepressants fall in the same category for me, even though I always avoided them. But if things are really dark, I would use any tool.
- haswell 4y ago
  I would place antidepressants under a different umbrella - closer to insulin or other chronically required "maintenance" medicine required to sustain life. Anti-depressants don't take pain away. In some cases, they make it possible to even feel pain. I'm ~6 years into my therapy journey at this point and I'm not on antidepressants at the moment, but I have been in the past when I needed them. I'm fortunate that I was able to stop, and that was partly because I put my work life on hold to go on sabbatical and use all of my capacity on myself for awhile. But that doesn't mean everyone can or should. I think it's also worth noting that especially now, mental health issues are increasingly caused by advancements in technology we don't yet know how to cope with, and from which there's very little escape. Meds allow one to do the hard internal work that would be significantly harder to achieve if they don't have the capacity to keep a well functioning life up and running. I think only embracing one or the other exclusively is where things start to go wrong, and what I took from the article.
themitigating 4y ago
Then it's a balance between side effects and the original issue. Isn't this common knowledge and accepted? I feel like debate makes no sense unless your motive is create more mistrust in science
seti0Cha 4y ago
Psychiatric treatment is not without its dangers either. A bad psychiatrist can fuck you up. I know several people that experienced this. I also know a couple of people who were messed up by poorly prescribed psychopharmaceuticals. The ugly truth is, there's no safe solution.
yamrzou 4y ago
I have read an interesting thought the other day about the side effects of those drugs from a psychoanalytic poit of view. It's just a psychoanalyst's thought, nothing scientific: “Recently the thought occurred to me that we have antidepressants back-to-front, as it were. The listed side-effects of these drugs (mostly SSRI’s) is really the main action, and the advertised effect is the real side effect. In other words antidepressants reduce anxiety and depression as a side effect of reducing libido – in the more inclusive sense of ‘life force’. Perhaps the relief of depression occurs because anxiety and depression are symptoms of libido or life energy hitting up against an obstacle or difficulty either in the internal or external world. This obstruction interferes with the ability of libido to express itself. Reduce libido and the unpleasant effects (depression and anxiety) of libido encountering an “obstruction” are correspondingly also reduced.” https://aucklandpsychotherapy.co.nz/antidepressants/ https://aucklandpsychotherapy.co.nz/antidepressants/
- karencarits 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. Psychoanalysis is often heavily criticized but it has this nice tendency to be curious and open about things and produce intriguing and interesting thoughts
- projektfu 4y ago
  That doesn't really match my experience of depression unless you somehow redefine all those terms to mean something else. It's hard to see where the libido is in someone who doesn't want to get out of bed, even to eat. Or in the case from the article, someone who feels like a piece of wood, and who paces the hospital like a Roomba. All effects of drugs are effects and they become side effects when they are undesirable. You used to be able to buy the same medication as either a decongestant and an appetite suppressant. In either case, the other effect is a side effect. On the other hand, if you took an antacid every day for your depression, and had no effect on it, for years, you might consider that it didn't work. However, the analysts didn't think that was possible to say about analysis.

There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.

by e40 4y ago

There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.

knaik94 4y ago

It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers. There are side effects is a bad generalization of all drugs used to treat mental health issues. When I say I am taking beta blockers, most people comment on how I am a bit young to be taking them, but when I was prescribed benzos for the same condition, everyone decided to become my doctor and tell me what I should and shouldn't take. Endless stories about how then knew someone who got addicted to pain killers and became homeless and how they heard benzos are just as bad. I chose to switch off benzos to beta blockers. Doctors and the patient are the best judge for the benefits and risks of living with certain conditions vs being medicated for them. In most cases there aren't side effects.

anotherman554 4y ago
"It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers." It not that weird. The brain is the most complicated organ in the human body. Science understands how the kidneys work but largely doesn't understand how the brain works. If you think these drugs are worth trying, I think you should make the argument without these sorts of analogies. "Doctors and the patient are the best judge for the benefits and risks of living with certain conditions vs being medicated for them." Okay, but if you were to follow this advise you should scold anyone who says "People with mental health problems should take drugs..." That's for the doctor and patient to decide, right? But you only scolded the person pushing back at this statement.
- knaik94 4y ago
  I do. I equally scold anyone that says MDMA or LSD is the cure all of depression. It's not an analogy. There is no mechanical difference between someone using Amphetamines to treat their ADHD and someone using insulin to treat their diabetes. There are just as many external as internal factors that go into how someone can get diabetes and what dosage of insulin they need at a specific moment in time. Science has advanced to a point where diabetes specifically can be monitored easily by a patient. The same is true of hypertension. The difference for mental health issues is that there is no easy quantifiable way to diagnose someone. Every organ is the most complicated organ in the human body, at a certain level every organ has a mechanism science doesn't understand yet. That's not a valid argument. The same is true for pain management. And Multiple Sclerosis. I would suggest you look into the modern state of neurophysiology and neuropsychopharmacology. The "we don't understand" is not true anymore. The reality is that there are so many factors affecting a certain visible outcome that it's hard to specify a root cause. I am not a medical professional, I have only taken some 300 and 400/grad level courses in psychology.
  - ButterBiscuits 4y ago
    > The "we don't understand" is not true anymore. The reality is that there are so many factors affecting a certain visible outcome that it's hard to specify a root cause. That sounds like "we don't understand" except now we slightly better understand how little we understand. We don't even know how Tylenol works.
  - FactoryReboot 4y ago
    “Every organ is the most complicated organ”. No, that’s blatantly untrue. The liver is one of the simpler ones as it’s all single cells, and the brain is definitely the most complex. I’ve never heard anyone say they are equally complex. That doesn’t mean we understand everything about the liver, but we are hell of a lot closer than the brain.
    - knaik94 4y ago
      The liver itself might be simple but the complexity is in the enzyme pathways. The marker of "elevated liver enzymes" doesn't tell us much. Taking a step back, there is only one organ I will admit we understand better than the brain, the heart. It's the only organ where we know enough to replace it with a mechanical counterpart. We don't know enough to make it last a long time, but it's enough to prolong someone's life in a meaningful way.
blendergeek 4y ago
That is weird. Diabetes can sometimes be treated with methods other than insulin [0]. I think that these dietary treatments are always a better option than insulin. The same way with high blood pressure. High blood pressure should always be managed by "diet and exercise" before meds are brought in. All of these drugs (diabetes drugs, high blood pressure drugs, heart medication) that are regularly being used to treat lifestyle diseases should be seen as a last resort with the main goal being to help people get to a point where they don't need them.
- ggm 4y ago
  ... until you hit 55-60 and irreversible changes to your body's hormonal system mean diet and exercise alone cannot control your hypertension, or late onset diabetes. I mean sure. Try. I had 10 years on Hypertension meds, 15 off, and I am back on despite significant weightless and increased physical activity. Idiopathic can happen.

hutzlibu 4y ago

You can also get addicted to pain killers. They still can help, but are surely no long term solution. Antidepressants fall in the same category for me, even though I always avoided them. But if things are really dark, I would use any tool.

haswell 4y ago
I would place antidepressants under a different umbrella - closer to insulin or other chronically required "maintenance" medicine required to sustain life. Anti-depressants don't take pain away. In some cases, they make it possible to even feel pain. I'm ~6 years into my therapy journey at this point and I'm not on antidepressants at the moment, but I have been in the past when I needed them. I'm fortunate that I was able to stop, and that was partly because I put my work life on hold to go on sabbatical and use all of my capacity on myself for awhile. But that doesn't mean everyone can or should. I think it's also worth noting that especially now, mental health issues are increasingly caused by advancements in technology we don't yet know how to cope with, and from which there's very little escape. Meds allow one to do the hard internal work that would be significantly harder to achieve if they don't have the capacity to keep a well functioning life up and running. I think only embracing one or the other exclusively is where things start to go wrong, and what I took from the article.

themitigating 4y ago

Then it's a balance between side effects and the original issue. Isn't this common knowledge and accepted? I feel like debate makes no sense unless your motive is create more mistrust in science

seti0Cha 4y ago

Psychiatric treatment is not without its dangers either. A bad psychiatrist can fuck you up. I know several people that experienced this. I also know a couple of people who were messed up by poorly prescribed psychopharmaceuticals. The ugly truth is, there's no safe solution.

yamrzou 4y ago

I have read an interesting thought the other day about the side effects of those drugs from a psychoanalytic poit of view. It's just a psychoanalyst's thought, nothing scientific: “Recently the thought occurred to me that we have antidepressants back-to-front, as it were. The listed side-effects of these drugs (mostly SSRI’s) is really the main action, and the advertised effect is the real side effect. In other words antidepressants reduce anxiety and depression as a side effect of reducing libido – in the more inclusive sense of ‘life force’. Perhaps the relief of depression occurs because anxiety and depression are symptoms of libido or life energy hitting up against an obstacle or difficulty either in the internal or external world. This obstruction interferes with the ability of libido to express itself. Reduce libido and the unpleasant effects (depression and anxiety) of libido encountering an “obstruction” are correspondingly also reduced.” https://aucklandpsychotherapy.co.nz/antidepressants/ https://aucklandpsychotherapy.co.nz/antidepressants/

karencarits 4y ago
Thank you for sharing this. Psychoanalysis is often heavily criticized but it has this nice tendency to be curious and open about things and produce intriguing and interesting thoughts
projektfu 4y ago
That doesn't really match my experience of depression unless you somehow redefine all those terms to mean something else. It's hard to see where the libido is in someone who doesn't want to get out of bed, even to eat. Or in the case from the article, someone who feels like a piece of wood, and who paces the hospital like a Roomba. All effects of drugs are effects and they become side effects when they are undesirable. You used to be able to buy the same medication as either a decongestant and an appetite suppressant. In either case, the other effect is a side effect. On the other hand, if you took an antacid every day for your depression, and had no effect on it, for years, you might consider that it didn't work. However, the analysts didn't think that was possible to say about analysis.