4 ms·

I was pretty skeptical about a lot of the negative press about China for a long time. Then the Chinese colonial takeover over Hong Kong went from soft to hard i

I was pretty skeptical about a lot of the negative press about China for a long time. Then the Chinese colonial takeover over Hong Kong went from soft to hard in 2019, during which they leveraged organize crime to try to quell dissent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chinese_government_connections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chines... This made it very clear to me that organized crime is a wing of the Chinese government. Before I probably wouldn't have believed a post like this, but now it seems enough in alignment with all parties interests that I find it more likely to be true than false.

CTDOCodebases 4y ago
The US has done this as well.[0] Though I think it’s fair to distinguish between using organised crime during times of war against an enemies military vs using organised crime during times of peace to grind down a competing nations civilian population. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sft...
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  I would imagine in the US the best parallels or examples would involve corporations or para-government entities (like political parties) leveraging organized crime to fight labor movements or civil rights movements. I would be extremely surprised if there weren't examples, but I don't know them off the top of my head.
- jimt1234 4y ago
  The FBI has used organized crime to help achieve its own goals. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.international https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.internatio...
- xkcd-sucks 4y ago
  Tangentially related, this reminded me of a documentary film on mass killings in Indonesia titled "The Act of Killing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing. It is an excellent film. Basically it comprises interviews of gangsters who were recruited by the government to conduct mass executions of undesirable people, and the subjects describe some reasons for which the work was tasked to organized crime rather than to official government employees.
  - hyuuu 4y ago
    these undesirable people are people who look like me, indonesian of chinese descent. They way they told their murderous stories, they didnt even consider us as humans, not even on par with animals.
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      Numbers on the purge victims indicate that Indonesian Chinese weren't a main target, but like happened in Malaya what started as "get rid of the Communists", could easily be turned into "And all the Chinese are Commies, right?" - they also often happened to be successful businesspeople, so bonus if you owed them money.
- klooney 4y ago
  In fairness, you could say this about the state security services in any major country. Criminals are useful, and will do stuff the state doesn't want to get caught doing.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Why bring up another country as a defense?
  - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
    It’s not a defence its an acknowledgement. Personally speaking I have more to gain from American imperialism than from Chinese imperialism.
    - hayst4ck 4y ago
      Here is what I consider one of the most important political writings I've read to date: https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-american https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-amer... The short version is that what makes a person their nationality can either be adherence to a set of values (civil society) or that their parents were that nationality (an ethnic society). China is clearly an ethnic society. America is practically on the verge of civil war over whether they are primarily an ethnic (white christian) society (GOP), or whether they are a civil (rule of law, believes in human rights) society (the very imperfect DNC). Civil societies aim for everyone to be an "us," while ethnic societies have a strong idea of "us vs them." So when these societies ask "how should resources be distributed?" Ethnic societies tend to believe they are in competition with everyone else for all resources and they should try their best to attain as many resources as possible. This directly results in supremacist leaning beliefs and old world imperialism. Setting up British schools in India and taking all their resources is absolutely a supremacist policy, as is killing native Americans and taking their land. The fact that these softer forms of supremacy are not taught next to the holocaust is a disservice to the average persons intuitive understanding of what supremacy looks like and what kind of spectrum genocide exists along. Ethnic societies are not governed directly by a set of values, so they tend to be ruled by dominance alone. So from a jaded point of view America is an empire just as China is an empire, but from a forgiving charitable (extra emphasis on charitable) point of view, a Chinese empire is trying to suck all the resources of earth up in to china, while the American "empire" is trying to establish a set of laws and values that apply to all people (human rights) while trying to address the very real tragedies of the commons we are facing (over fishing, global warming, nuclear annihilation). The reality though is that ethnic forces in america are strongly at work trying to achieve power, and liberal civil forces in america are extremely weak, so the "liberal world order" can be supplanted by "American supremacy" (America first), and we end up in a state where we look old wold imperialist via neocolonialism. At the end of the day that means the most important thing for Americans to do is fight the ethnic party, and if we can't do that, then we don't deserve to exert our influence abroad, and should rightly be resisted.
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  There's a lot more nuance than that. During Wartime, the Ładoś_Group would be considered organized crime; It was a passport-forging ring. During peacetime, "Radio Free Europe" was organized crime; The Soviet Union tried it's best to jam it. Coming to agreements with local organized crime against foreign enemies is distasteful but pragmatic and usually a good; Even The Joker[1] had some patriotism. Funding foreign organized crime can be used for good or ill. You can supply the black market with foreign goods to convince them that life would be better under new government (which the CIA did during the cold war), or you can supply drugs and weapons so they kill themselves off. One is an absolute sin; The other is more questionable but generally good. [1] https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4051/4703531875_3b13568ed7_b.jpg https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4051/4703531875_3b13568ed7_b.j...
novok 4y ago
If you weren't skeptical of the government that made such wonders as one of the top 3 mass murders in human history, Mao, your either ignorant of history or ignorant of the many atrocities that communist china has always inflicted on it's own people.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  I am a layman (definitely not a historian) who went to American public education institutions, so yes, you'll have to forgive ignorance of Chinese history. American education on china can be summarized in 10 words: "Confucianism, open door, Boxer rebellion, Dowager empress, Mao, Tienanmen square." none of which is analyzed from a critical or philosophical perspective and none in any depth enough to cause an emotional reaction. Ironically public education spent more time talking about how all media lies to their countries and how we need to critically think about news to avoid falling prey to propaganda. While I definitely have skepticism, it was primarily applied to the American media apparatus. I was skeptic because I don't trust that my government and educational/media institutions would give me the full story and that they would definitely lie and exaggerate for personal gain. American media has lied before, so it's important to be skeptical about what people want you to believe. Hong Kong made it clear that I was too skeptical of western media and that a much better explanation was that foreign propaganda was sowing doubt and lack of trust in my own country and institutions. Hong Kong made it very clear that China is run by a very evil party and my government and institutions probably aren't lying to me as much as my younger self thought. So while you told me I was ignorant in an inflammatory way, it was the case that I was ignorant of Chinese history and seeing it unfold in real time has given new perspective. Having spent well over a year in various parts of Asia, I am now much less ignorant of Chinese history.
lvturner 4y ago
The use of organised crime happened on multiple sides of the issues that erupted in 2019. One has to ask why far right Ukrainians were spotted at the protests (sorry - not the best example perhaps given the current situation) it seems unlikely they flew here out of the goodness of their hearts to support democracy.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  > it seems unlikely they flew here out of the goodness of their hearts to support democracy. I think you vastly underestimate the power of ideas like "live free or die" and the solidarity of oppressed countries that live next door to fascist authoritarian regimes. I'm a middle class American who wants for nothing and I have given serious contemplation to joining the military to protect Taiwan. When no one is willing to make sacrifices to fight for freedom, everyone will become enslaved. If I won't fight for others, they won't fight for me. I think I'd need a bit more substantiation on "right wing Ukrainians in Hong Kong" to evaluate the point being made.
lenkite 4y ago
They learnt from the un-paralleled best - the United States.

CTDOCodebases 4y ago

The US has done this as well.[0] Though I think it’s fair to distinguish between using organised crime during times of war against an enemies military vs using organised crime during times of peace to grind down a competing nations civilian population. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sft...

hayst4ck 4y ago
I would imagine in the US the best parallels or examples would involve corporations or para-government entities (like political parties) leveraging organized crime to fight labor movements or civil rights movements. I would be extremely surprised if there weren't examples, but I don't know them off the top of my head.
jimt1234 4y ago
The FBI has used organized crime to help achieve its own goals. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.international https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.internatio...
xkcd-sucks 4y ago
Tangentially related, this reminded me of a documentary film on mass killings in Indonesia titled "The Act of Killing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing. It is an excellent film. Basically it comprises interviews of gangsters who were recruited by the government to conduct mass executions of undesirable people, and the subjects describe some reasons for which the work was tasked to organized crime rather than to official government employees.
- hyuuu 4y ago
  these undesirable people are people who look like me, indonesian of chinese descent. They way they told their murderous stories, they didnt even consider us as humans, not even on par with animals.
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Numbers on the purge victims indicate that Indonesian Chinese weren't a main target, but like happened in Malaya what started as "get rid of the Communists", could easily be turned into "And all the Chinese are Commies, right?" - they also often happened to be successful businesspeople, so bonus if you owed them money.
klooney 4y ago
In fairness, you could say this about the state security services in any major country. Criminals are useful, and will do stuff the state doesn't want to get caught doing.
ipaddr 4y ago
Why bring up another country as a defense?
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  It’s not a defence its an acknowledgement. Personally speaking I have more to gain from American imperialism than from Chinese imperialism.
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    Here is what I consider one of the most important political writings I've read to date: https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-american https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-amer... The short version is that what makes a person their nationality can either be adherence to a set of values (civil society) or that their parents were that nationality (an ethnic society). China is clearly an ethnic society. America is practically on the verge of civil war over whether they are primarily an ethnic (white christian) society (GOP), or whether they are a civil (rule of law, believes in human rights) society (the very imperfect DNC). Civil societies aim for everyone to be an "us," while ethnic societies have a strong idea of "us vs them." So when these societies ask "how should resources be distributed?" Ethnic societies tend to believe they are in competition with everyone else for all resources and they should try their best to attain as many resources as possible. This directly results in supremacist leaning beliefs and old world imperialism. Setting up British schools in India and taking all their resources is absolutely a supremacist policy, as is killing native Americans and taking their land. The fact that these softer forms of supremacy are not taught next to the holocaust is a disservice to the average persons intuitive understanding of what supremacy looks like and what kind of spectrum genocide exists along. Ethnic societies are not governed directly by a set of values, so they tend to be ruled by dominance alone. So from a jaded point of view America is an empire just as China is an empire, but from a forgiving charitable (extra emphasis on charitable) point of view, a Chinese empire is trying to suck all the resources of earth up in to china, while the American "empire" is trying to establish a set of laws and values that apply to all people (human rights) while trying to address the very real tragedies of the commons we are facing (over fishing, global warming, nuclear annihilation). The reality though is that ethnic forces in america are strongly at work trying to achieve power, and liberal civil forces in america are extremely weak, so the "liberal world order" can be supplanted by "American supremacy" (America first), and we end up in a state where we look old wold imperialist via neocolonialism. At the end of the day that means the most important thing for Americans to do is fight the ethnic party, and if we can't do that, then we don't deserve to exert our influence abroad, and should rightly be resisted.
GauntletWizard 4y ago
There's a lot more nuance than that. During Wartime, the Ładoś_Group would be considered organized crime; It was a passport-forging ring. During peacetime, "Radio Free Europe" was organized crime; The Soviet Union tried it's best to jam it. Coming to agreements with local organized crime against foreign enemies is distasteful but pragmatic and usually a good; Even The Joker[1] had some patriotism. Funding foreign organized crime can be used for good or ill. You can supply the black market with foreign goods to convince them that life would be better under new government (which the CIA did during the cold war), or you can supply drugs and weapons so they kill themselves off. One is an absolute sin; The other is more questionable but generally good. [1] https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4051/4703531875_3b13568ed7_b.jpg https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4051/4703531875_3b13568ed7_b.j...

novok 4y ago

If you weren't skeptical of the government that made such wonders as one of the top 3 mass murders in human history, Mao, your either ignorant of history or ignorant of the many atrocities that communist china has always inflicted on it's own people.

hayst4ck 4y ago
I am a layman (definitely not a historian) who went to American public education institutions, so yes, you'll have to forgive ignorance of Chinese history. American education on china can be summarized in 10 words: "Confucianism, open door, Boxer rebellion, Dowager empress, Mao, Tienanmen square." none of which is analyzed from a critical or philosophical perspective and none in any depth enough to cause an emotional reaction. Ironically public education spent more time talking about how all media lies to their countries and how we need to critically think about news to avoid falling prey to propaganda. While I definitely have skepticism, it was primarily applied to the American media apparatus. I was skeptic because I don't trust that my government and educational/media institutions would give me the full story and that they would definitely lie and exaggerate for personal gain. American media has lied before, so it's important to be skeptical about what people want you to believe. Hong Kong made it clear that I was too skeptical of western media and that a much better explanation was that foreign propaganda was sowing doubt and lack of trust in my own country and institutions. Hong Kong made it very clear that China is run by a very evil party and my government and institutions probably aren't lying to me as much as my younger self thought. So while you told me I was ignorant in an inflammatory way, it was the case that I was ignorant of Chinese history and seeing it unfold in real time has given new perspective. Having spent well over a year in various parts of Asia, I am now much less ignorant of Chinese history.

lvturner 4y ago

The use of organised crime happened on multiple sides of the issues that erupted in 2019. One has to ask why far right Ukrainians were spotted at the protests (sorry - not the best example perhaps given the current situation) it seems unlikely they flew here out of the goodness of their hearts to support democracy.

hayst4ck 4y ago
> it seems unlikely they flew here out of the goodness of their hearts to support democracy. I think you vastly underestimate the power of ideas like "live free or die" and the solidarity of oppressed countries that live next door to fascist authoritarian regimes. I'm a middle class American who wants for nothing and I have given serious contemplation to joining the military to protect Taiwan. When no one is willing to make sacrifices to fight for freedom, everyone will become enslaved. If I won't fight for others, they won't fight for me. I think I'd need a bit more substantiation on "right wing Ukrainians in Hong Kong" to evaluate the point being made.

lenkite 4y ago

They learnt from the un-paralleled best - the United States.