4 ms·

What is Germanys dystopian madness?

by lampshades 4y ago

mkl95 4y ago
Relying on coal on for 30%+ of their electricity
- cjblomqvist 4y ago
  According to Wikipedia (quoting a source from jan 2021) 24% of energy production comes from coal.
  - mkl95 4y ago
    According to the German Federal Statistical Office (report released a few weeks ago) it was 31.4% on the first half of the year up from 17.2% on the same period a year earlier. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/_node.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...
- ncmncm 4y ago
  It is dishonest to conflate emergency war measures as policy.
  - est31 4y ago
    Yeah the plan was to buy methane gas from Russia instead. Still a non renewable source, but the gas would have caused less CO2 emissions and less pollution (gas causes less CO2 per kilowatt hour). Of course, the war and the bombings of NordStream have put an end to that.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The gas would have been used to fill in while renewables were being built out. Now coal is filling in while renewables are being built out even faster. Without the investment to date in wind, coal dependency would have been massively greater.
      - est31 4y ago
        Yeah, note that a lot of those renewables won't be built in Germany but outside of it, as there is simply no capacity for this in Germany. While Germany is a net exporter for electricity, it does import a large chunk of its total energy usage (electricity plus stuff like fuel for cars, heating, et). Stuff like coal or gas or oil. In 2017, it was from 70% of imports and 30% from energy harvested locally [0]. It's quite impossible that this can all be converted to renewable power sources originating in Germany. So what will likely/hopefully happen is that the closer partner countries will supply electricity to Germany via cables, while countries from further away will send Hydrogen generated from renewable sources, that will then be burned in the already existing gas plants. [0]: https://www.weltenergierat.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/81040_DNK_Energie2018_Kap4.1.pdf https://www.weltenergierat.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/810...
  - mkl95 4y ago
    War is just the straw that broke the camel's back. Shutting down nuclear energy while depending on a dictator's gas set them to fail.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    The emergency measures are needed because the peacetime policy was not designed to be resilient. A better peacetime policy would have obviated the need for destructive emergency measures.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      If only they'd listened to someone who warned them four years ago while possessed by a rare display of competence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBUNqVTkCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBUNqVTkCs
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The peacetime policy was to build renewable capacity. Now there is radically more renewable capacity than before, much more than if another direction had been chosen. If 30% coal today is bad, >>30% coal, the alternative, would have been correspondingly worse.
- tpmx 4y ago
  That's a small part of their sins. The big part is relying on gas for heating. When speaking with germans I've found that they think of gas as "clean" which sounds insane to me. Yeah, maybe locally, compared to coal, but it's their largest co2 emission source nevertheless.
  - Isolus 4y ago
    I don't know anyone in germany who thinks gas is "clean". New buildings are built with heat pumps. They are considered clean if used with renewable energy. But it's difficult to use them in old buildings and gas is said to be to most cleanest heating technology based on fossil fuels.
    - anonporridge 4y ago
      Heat pumps are amazing and a big step forward, but Germany's electricity is energized by natural gas peaker plants when there is not enough wind or solar generation operating. Even if every German building was using heat pumps, they would still be burning TONS of natural gas to keep the electricity flowing consistently, because they have no long term energy storage solution to pair with renewables, especially through the long, dark winters when the sun rarely shines.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        You imagine there is no plan because you do not know about the plans. It would be stupid to build storage there is not renewable generating capacity to charge. When there is such capacity, they will then build out storage. In the meantime the correct place to spend is on generation. Which, in fact, is what they are doing.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      Germany literally got the European Commission to label gas burning as "green energy" (!). https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germany-takes-firm-pro-gas-stance-in-green-taxonomy-feedback-to-eu/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/ger... https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-declares-nuclear-and-gas-to-be-green/a-60614990 https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-declares-nuclear-a... (Does that count as gaslighting? Sorry.)
streblo 4y ago
Something like 40% of the "renewable" energy being generated in the EU/Britain comes from burning wood, a lot of which was shipped from the US.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I don't think most reasonable people count biomass in with renewable (at least not large scale biomass). e.g. this website https://grid.iamkate.com/ https://grid.iamkate.com/ has biomass in "other" along with nuclear and pumped hydro storage.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    The people setting Germany's energy policy are not reasonable, unfortunately.
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    Biomass literally grows on trees. It's by definition renewable.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      In theory, but an unfortunate amount of biomass burnt in Europe is old growth forest being cut down in the US and shipped across the Atlantic. So renewable, but it would take hundreds of years to renew, and likely won't be renewed.\ https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/future-drax-old-inefficient-damaging-and-expensive https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/future-drax-old-...
    - michaelt 4y ago
      The wood pellet power used in the UK is pretty sketchy. Even in the best case, when you cut down a tree, burn it, and plant a replacement you've still released a bunch of carbon into the atmosphere. So carbon in the atmosphere will be raised for 20-50 years. When people have looked into the source of these wood pellets the claims of the pellet companies often don't line up with official records - like saying they didn't log an old-growth forest, when they held the logging license at the time it was logged. Or claiming they only use sawdust and low-quality wood, when their output volume is much greater than the amount of low-quality wood you'd expect [1]. And supposedly the trees get replanted - but the company doing it got paid when the pellets were delivered. If in 5 years time they decide to do something else with the land, they can do. The government turns a blind eye to this to hit their 'renewables' targets. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63089348 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63089348
anonporridge 4y ago
Shutting down one of the cleanest and safest sources of electricity (nuclear fission) in favor of a natural gas enabled renewable grid with natural gas primarily supplied by Putin. Nuclear fission is clean energy.

What is Germanys dystopian madness?

mkl95 4y ago

Relying on coal on for 30%+ of their electricity

cjblomqvist 4y ago
According to Wikipedia (quoting a source from jan 2021) 24% of energy production comes from coal.
- mkl95 4y ago
  According to the German Federal Statistical Office (report released a few weeks ago) it was 31.4% on the first half of the year up from 17.2% on the same period a year earlier. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/_node.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...
ncmncm 4y ago
It is dishonest to conflate emergency war measures as policy.
- est31 4y ago
  Yeah the plan was to buy methane gas from Russia instead. Still a non renewable source, but the gas would have caused less CO2 emissions and less pollution (gas causes less CO2 per kilowatt hour). Of course, the war and the bombings of NordStream have put an end to that.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The gas would have been used to fill in while renewables were being built out. Now coal is filling in while renewables are being built out even faster. Without the investment to date in wind, coal dependency would have been massively greater.
    - est31 4y ago
      Yeah, note that a lot of those renewables won't be built in Germany but outside of it, as there is simply no capacity for this in Germany. While Germany is a net exporter for electricity, it does import a large chunk of its total energy usage (electricity plus stuff like fuel for cars, heating, et). Stuff like coal or gas or oil. In 2017, it was from 70% of imports and 30% from energy harvested locally [0]. It's quite impossible that this can all be converted to renewable power sources originating in Germany. So what will likely/hopefully happen is that the closer partner countries will supply electricity to Germany via cables, while countries from further away will send Hydrogen generated from renewable sources, that will then be burned in the already existing gas plants. [0]: https://www.weltenergierat.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/81040_DNK_Energie2018_Kap4.1.pdf https://www.weltenergierat.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/810...
- mkl95 4y ago
  War is just the straw that broke the camel's back. Shutting down nuclear energy while depending on a dictator's gas set them to fail.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  The emergency measures are needed because the peacetime policy was not designed to be resilient. A better peacetime policy would have obviated the need for destructive emergency measures.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    If only they'd listened to someone who warned them four years ago while possessed by a rare display of competence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBUNqVTkCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBUNqVTkCs
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The peacetime policy was to build renewable capacity. Now there is radically more renewable capacity than before, much more than if another direction had been chosen. If 30% coal today is bad, >>30% coal, the alternative, would have been correspondingly worse.
tpmx 4y ago
That's a small part of their sins. The big part is relying on gas for heating. When speaking with germans I've found that they think of gas as "clean" which sounds insane to me. Yeah, maybe locally, compared to coal, but it's their largest co2 emission source nevertheless.
- Isolus 4y ago
  I don't know anyone in germany who thinks gas is "clean". New buildings are built with heat pumps. They are considered clean if used with renewable energy. But it's difficult to use them in old buildings and gas is said to be to most cleanest heating technology based on fossil fuels.
  - anonporridge 4y ago
    Heat pumps are amazing and a big step forward, but Germany's electricity is energized by natural gas peaker plants when there is not enough wind or solar generation operating. Even if every German building was using heat pumps, they would still be burning TONS of natural gas to keep the electricity flowing consistently, because they have no long term energy storage solution to pair with renewables, especially through the long, dark winters when the sun rarely shines.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      You imagine there is no plan because you do not know about the plans. It would be stupid to build storage there is not renewable generating capacity to charge. When there is such capacity, they will then build out storage. In the meantime the correct place to spend is on generation. Which, in fact, is what they are doing.
  - tpmx 4y ago
    Germany literally got the European Commission to label gas burning as "green energy" (!). https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germany-takes-firm-pro-gas-stance-in-green-taxonomy-feedback-to-eu/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/ger... https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-declares-nuclear-and-gas-to-be-green/a-60614990 https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-declares-nuclear-a... (Does that count as gaslighting? Sorry.)

streblo 4y ago

Something like 40% of the "renewable" energy being generated in the EU/Britain comes from burning wood, a lot of which was shipped from the US.

nicoburns 4y ago
I don't think most reasonable people count biomass in with renewable (at least not large scale biomass). e.g. this website https://grid.iamkate.com/ https://grid.iamkate.com/ has biomass in "other" along with nuclear and pumped hydro storage.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  The people setting Germany's energy policy are not reasonable, unfortunately.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  Biomass literally grows on trees. It's by definition renewable.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    In theory, but an unfortunate amount of biomass burnt in Europe is old growth forest being cut down in the US and shipped across the Atlantic. So renewable, but it would take hundreds of years to renew, and likely won't be renewed.\ https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/future-drax-old-inefficient-damaging-and-expensive https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/future-drax-old-...
  - michaelt 4y ago
    The wood pellet power used in the UK is pretty sketchy. Even in the best case, when you cut down a tree, burn it, and plant a replacement you've still released a bunch of carbon into the atmosphere. So carbon in the atmosphere will be raised for 20-50 years. When people have looked into the source of these wood pellets the claims of the pellet companies often don't line up with official records - like saying they didn't log an old-growth forest, when they held the logging license at the time it was logged. Or claiming they only use sawdust and low-quality wood, when their output volume is much greater than the amount of low-quality wood you'd expect [1]. And supposedly the trees get replanted - but the company doing it got paid when the pellets were delivered. If in 5 years time they decide to do something else with the land, they can do. The government turns a blind eye to this to hit their 'renewables' targets. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63089348 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63089348

anonporridge 4y ago

Shutting down one of the cleanest and safest sources of electricity (nuclear fission) in favor of a natural gas enabled renewable grid with natural gas primarily supplied by Putin. Nuclear fission is clean energy.