8 ms·

Meanwhile in Germany: https://switzerlandtimes.ch/world/german-greens-remain-firm-on-the-nuclear-issue/ https://switzerlandtimes.ch/world/german-greens-remain-f

by lnsru 4y ago

Meanwhile in Germany: https://switzerlandtimes.ch/world/german-greens-remain-firm-on-the-nuclear-issue/ https://switzerlandtimes.ch/world/german-greens-remain-firm-... Welcome to The new dark ages in Germany. Leading politicians even do not have any higher education: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricarda_Lang https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricarda_Lang It’s scary how these people decide about topics they have no idea about.

noja 4y ago
You're likely in the giant country that is the USA, with large swathes of lightly populated land. Germany isn't that.
froh 4y ago
Dr Angela Merkel holds a PhD in quantum physics. she stands by her cabinets decision to leave nuclear energy in densely populated Germany, as per a recent interview. renewables will provide for 80% of Germanies energy needs by 2030, and close enough to 100% in 2050.
- capitainenemo 4y ago
  The last I read into Germany's plan to be "100%" renewable, it was using other countries in Europe to provide the base load using their hydro and nuclear. Which is great so long as they have excess to provide Germany I suppose. There does not seem to be nearly enough construction of pumped storage or battery to cover the unevenness of German wind power. In fact, their prices have gone negative repeatedly in the past, which is not in fact a good thing. (OMG help, we'll pay anyone to take this power before the grid blows up!)
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    It would be stupid to spend on storage before there is enough renewable generating capacity to charge it from. In the meantime they spend, sensibly, on renewable generating capacity. By the time there is enough, storage will be massively cheaper. In the meantime, charging storage from gas or coal and then drawing it down is the same as burning gas or coal for immediate use, just with losses.
    - capitainenemo 4y ago
      The storage should be built in conjunction with the renewable generation to avoid those excess grid damaging events which is just wasteful. Similar issue to US where constructing generation is being subsidised but not constructing storage along with it.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        There are no "grid damaging events".
        capitainenemo 4y ago
        Correct, because they price it negatively to avoid that happening. It's still indicative of a problem.
    - elihu 4y ago
      Batteries will probably be cheaper, but pumped hydro storage will probably cost about the same since it's a mature technology. I could see Norway or Switzerland being major players in pumped hydro storage, given their geography. Awhile back I did a bunch of math to try to figure out how much stored gravitational energy is in Lake Mead, and if I didn't make any major mistakes it came out to be about as much energy as the U.S. uses (as electrical energy) in 24 hours. The idea of moving that amount of water around on short time scales is hard to fathom.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        The overwhelming majority of storage will not be batteries, unless a massively cheaper battery chemistry takes over. Lake Mead stores (well, stored) radically less energy than mountaintop reservoirs with thousands of feet of "head" can hold behind cheap earthen dikes. Look up "penstock".
        elihu 4y ago
        I suppose I should have clarified that I meant "lake Mead if at capacity" which it isn't. Stored energy (in a fixed gravitational field) is the product of height and mass. Hoover dam has a "hydraulic height" of 576 feet according to a government website, though the average height of any given drop of water is less than that because the lake is deep (or it was, anyways). The thing about lake Mead is that the volume of water is absolutely huge. I don't think there are any mountaintop reservoirs anywhere close to it because though the altitude difference could be a lot more, it's hard to store large amounts of water on a mountaintop. If we estimate that the average height of water in Lake Mead is 400 feet and it holds 26 million acre feet, then a pumped hydro storage system with 4,000 feet of altitude difference would need to hold 2.6 million acre feet to be equivalent. I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that in the U.S. The Bath County Pumped Storage Station in Virginia has an upper reservoir of about 35.6 thousand acre feet and a vertical distance of 380 meters (1,246 feet).
  - froh 4y ago
    > we'll pay anyone to take this power before the grid blows up that's not how that works. also: Dunkelflaute is 0.5% - 1.5% per year and only very rarely for longer than 24h. peaker power plants are turned off most of the time today and a combination of those and decentralized battery storage will easily buffer Dunkelflaute in Germany. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute
  - Isolus 4y ago
    In fact, many believe that storage as hydrogen shows promise. There are many test plants for this right now in areas with a lot of wind and connection to the national gas grid. The idea is that the hydrogen can then be used in existing gas power plants.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Hydrogen is one of many practical storage media. Many will be used, different ones favored in different places. Hydrogen is particularly suited for places with large, stable underground cavities.
    - froh 4y ago
      hydrogen has a relatively poor efficiency compared to battery storage electricity to store and back, and it's an highly flammable, infamously explosive gas. but it has a high energy density and it can be transported relatively well. hydrogen will find it's niche.
- oifjsidjf 4y ago
  How exactly will you be 100% renewable during a cloudy and windless period with solar and wind?
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    - Georgelemental 4y ago
      The comment you are replying to was not "trolling"; it raised a legitimate, technical objection to a policy in a manner that invites constructive responses (for example, "with storage technology" is a common response I see).
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Then it'd be good to mention what this storage mechanism is, and examples of existing commercial deployments said storage mechanism and their cost history. It's odd to see someone insist that the solution is so obvious that anyone who doesn't recognize it is trolling, yet they neglect to mention what that solution is.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        Storage is a common answer, but it has problems of its own. Presumably the OP considers these problems fatal; if you disagree, say so and explain why.
        4y ago
- int_19h 4y ago
  Is that the same interview in which she also stood by their decision to rely so heavily on Russian gas, even though the writing has been clearly on the wall since at least 2014?
  - froh 4y ago
    first that's not what she said. she said given what the cabinet and western intelligence knew they considered it the right approach. and second, in hindsight some writing was on the wall in 2014. however back then Germany was between a rock and a hard place for our energy supply and we simply added a new supply channel, in addition to US LNG and Saudi and Qatari LNG. https://youtu.be/yR0wsWrs2yY https://youtu.be/yR0wsWrs2yY
anigbrowl 4y ago
Without endorsing her political positions, it's false to assert that Lang does 'not have any higher education'; your own link states 'After graduating from the Hölderlin-Gymnasium Nürtingen in 2012, Lang began studying law, first at the Heidelberg University and later at the Humboldt University of Berlin, eventually dropping out in 2019 without graduating.' Relying on hyperbole like this undermines your own argument.
Isolus 4y ago
Germany is a densely populated country. We already don't know where to put the nuclear waste. No one wants it on his or her doorstep. The cost of storage alone is a nightmare. The nuclear exit was supported by the population and not decided against them by politicians. And to your criticism: A lot of politicians in germany are lawyers. Are they allowed do decide for the country? Do they have an idea about nuclear topics?
- anonporridge 4y ago
  > We already don't know where to put the nuclear waste. No one wants it on his or her doorstep. How about with their very friendly neighbors across the Baltic Sea who are about to finish a facility for exactly this purpose? https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-store-nuclear-waste-can-it-survive-100000-years https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-s... Even ignoring this, pearl clutching about the nuclear waste storage problem without directly contrasting it with the CO2 waste problem is highly problematic. Nuclear waste is a contained, tractable problem even if challenging. We barely even know where to begin with tackling the problem of removing gigatons of CO2 from the high atmosphere.
  - o_1 4y ago
    are you saying because you can't fix one problem you shouldn't approach another? What does removal of atmospheric C02 have to do with storing nuclear waste. I think Germany has even bigger problems with there natural gas policy. Extracting C02 shouldn't be your main concern versus much dangerously low in home temperatures in winter.
- timmg 4y ago
  How do ya’ll manage to live next door to France? They seem to have it figured out.
  - switch007 4y ago
    Didn’t they have to shut down a load of nuclear this summer because they couldn’t cool it sufficiently? Can’t see that getting any better climate wise
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
- nicbou 4y ago
  Remember which website you are on, and it's community standards.
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and flamewar comments and ignoring our requests to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32902774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32902774 (Sept 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30016351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30016351 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29833297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29833297 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213045 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19354803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19354803 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19086334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19086334 (Feb 2019)

by lnsru 4y ago

noja 4y ago

You're likely in the giant country that is the USA, with large swathes of lightly populated land. Germany isn't that.

froh 4y ago

Dr Angela Merkel holds a PhD in quantum physics. she stands by her cabinets decision to leave nuclear energy in densely populated Germany, as per a recent interview. renewables will provide for 80% of Germanies energy needs by 2030, and close enough to 100% in 2050.

capitainenemo 4y ago
The last I read into Germany's plan to be "100%" renewable, it was using other countries in Europe to provide the base load using their hydro and nuclear. Which is great so long as they have excess to provide Germany I suppose. There does not seem to be nearly enough construction of pumped storage or battery to cover the unevenness of German wind power. In fact, their prices have gone negative repeatedly in the past, which is not in fact a good thing. (OMG help, we'll pay anyone to take this power before the grid blows up!)
- ncmncm 4y ago
  It would be stupid to spend on storage before there is enough renewable generating capacity to charge it from. In the meantime they spend, sensibly, on renewable generating capacity. By the time there is enough, storage will be massively cheaper. In the meantime, charging storage from gas or coal and then drawing it down is the same as burning gas or coal for immediate use, just with losses.
  - capitainenemo 4y ago
    The storage should be built in conjunction with the renewable generation to avoid those excess grid damaging events which is just wasteful. Similar issue to US where constructing generation is being subsidised but not constructing storage along with it.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      There are no "grid damaging events".
      - capitainenemo 4y ago
        Correct, because they price it negatively to avoid that happening. It's still indicative of a problem.
  - elihu 4y ago
    Batteries will probably be cheaper, but pumped hydro storage will probably cost about the same since it's a mature technology. I could see Norway or Switzerland being major players in pumped hydro storage, given their geography. Awhile back I did a bunch of math to try to figure out how much stored gravitational energy is in Lake Mead, and if I didn't make any major mistakes it came out to be about as much energy as the U.S. uses (as electrical energy) in 24 hours. The idea of moving that amount of water around on short time scales is hard to fathom.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The overwhelming majority of storage will not be batteries, unless a massively cheaper battery chemistry takes over. Lake Mead stores (well, stored) radically less energy than mountaintop reservoirs with thousands of feet of "head" can hold behind cheap earthen dikes. Look up "penstock".
      - elihu 4y ago
        I suppose I should have clarified that I meant "lake Mead if at capacity" which it isn't. Stored energy (in a fixed gravitational field) is the product of height and mass. Hoover dam has a "hydraulic height" of 576 feet according to a government website, though the average height of any given drop of water is less than that because the lake is deep (or it was, anyways). The thing about lake Mead is that the volume of water is absolutely huge. I don't think there are any mountaintop reservoirs anywhere close to it because though the altitude difference could be a lot more, it's hard to store large amounts of water on a mountaintop. If we estimate that the average height of water in Lake Mead is 400 feet and it holds 26 million acre feet, then a pumped hydro storage system with 4,000 feet of altitude difference would need to hold 2.6 million acre feet to be equivalent. I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that in the U.S. The Bath County Pumped Storage Station in Virginia has an upper reservoir of about 35.6 thousand acre feet and a vertical distance of 380 meters (1,246 feet).
- froh 4y ago
  > we'll pay anyone to take this power before the grid blows up that's not how that works. also: Dunkelflaute is 0.5% - 1.5% per year and only very rarely for longer than 24h. peaker power plants are turned off most of the time today and a combination of those and decentralized battery storage will easily buffer Dunkelflaute in Germany. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute
- Isolus 4y ago
  In fact, many believe that storage as hydrogen shows promise. There are many test plants for this right now in areas with a lot of wind and connection to the national gas grid. The idea is that the hydrogen can then be used in existing gas power plants.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Hydrogen is one of many practical storage media. Many will be used, different ones favored in different places. Hydrogen is particularly suited for places with large, stable underground cavities.
  - froh 4y ago
    hydrogen has a relatively poor efficiency compared to battery storage electricity to store and back, and it's an highly flammable, infamously explosive gas. but it has a high energy density and it can be transported relatively well. hydrogen will find it's niche.
oifjsidjf 4y ago
How exactly will you be 100% renewable during a cloudy and windless period with solar and wind?
- ncmncm 4y ago
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    The comment you are replying to was not "trolling"; it raised a legitimate, technical objection to a policy in a manner that invites constructive responses (for example, "with storage technology" is a common response I see).
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        Then it'd be good to mention what this storage mechanism is, and examples of existing commercial deployments said storage mechanism and their cost history. It's odd to see someone insist that the solution is so obvious that anyone who doesn't recognize it is trolling, yet they neglect to mention what that solution is.
        ncmncm 4y ago
      - Georgelemental 4y ago
        Storage is a common answer, but it has problems of its own. Presumably the OP considers these problems fatal; if you disagree, say so and explain why.
        4y ago
int_19h 4y ago
Is that the same interview in which she also stood by their decision to rely so heavily on Russian gas, even though the writing has been clearly on the wall since at least 2014?
- froh 4y ago
  first that's not what she said. she said given what the cabinet and western intelligence knew they considered it the right approach. and second, in hindsight some writing was on the wall in 2014. however back then Germany was between a rock and a hard place for our energy supply and we simply added a new supply channel, in addition to US LNG and Saudi and Qatari LNG. https://youtu.be/yR0wsWrs2yY https://youtu.be/yR0wsWrs2yY

anigbrowl 4y ago

Without endorsing her political positions, it's false to assert that Lang does 'not have any higher education'; your own link states 'After graduating from the Hölderlin-Gymnasium Nürtingen in 2012, Lang began studying law, first at the Heidelberg University and later at the Humboldt University of Berlin, eventually dropping out in 2019 without graduating.' Relying on hyperbole like this undermines your own argument.

Isolus 4y ago

Germany is a densely populated country. We already don't know where to put the nuclear waste. No one wants it on his or her doorstep. The cost of storage alone is a nightmare. The nuclear exit was supported by the population and not decided against them by politicians. And to your criticism: A lot of politicians in germany are lawyers. Are they allowed do decide for the country? Do they have an idea about nuclear topics?

anonporridge 4y ago
> We already don't know where to put the nuclear waste. No one wants it on his or her doorstep. How about with their very friendly neighbors across the Baltic Sea who are about to finish a facility for exactly this purpose? https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-store-nuclear-waste-can-it-survive-100000-years https://www.science.org/content/article/finland-built-tomb-s... Even ignoring this, pearl clutching about the nuclear waste storage problem without directly contrasting it with the CO2 waste problem is highly problematic. Nuclear waste is a contained, tractable problem even if challenging. We barely even know where to begin with tackling the problem of removing gigatons of CO2 from the high atmosphere.
- o_1 4y ago
  are you saying because you can't fix one problem you shouldn't approach another? What does removal of atmospheric C02 have to do with storing nuclear waste. I think Germany has even bigger problems with there natural gas policy. Extracting C02 shouldn't be your main concern versus much dangerously low in home temperatures in winter.
timmg 4y ago
How do ya’ll manage to live next door to France? They seem to have it figured out.
- switch007 4y ago
  Didn’t they have to shut down a load of nuclear this summer because they couldn’t cool it sufficiently? Can’t see that getting any better climate wise

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

nicbou 4y ago
Remember which website you are on, and it's community standards.
dang 4y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and flamewar comments and ignoring our requests to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32902774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32902774 (Sept 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30016351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30016351 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29833297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29833297 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213045 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19354803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19354803 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19086334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19086334 (Feb 2019)