8 ms·

Equifax surveilled 1k remote workers, fired 24 found juggling two jobs

34 points by Deinos 4y ago

danw1979 4y ago
I don’t know what to think about the “overemployment” trend that the pandemic and remote working has ushered in. Most contractors seem to have no mutuality of obligation to their clients and I have friends running two and three gigs who claim their clients are happy. I’ve had contract engineers who were obviously engaging in the practice though, and it drove me up the wall. It just seems so dishonest and at the same time perfectly legal.
- MarcelOlsz 4y ago
  How many CEO's and "advisors" and board members do you know "juggling" multiple jobs? I think it's "all of them".
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    > I think it's "all of them". No. Not all of us.
  - danw1979 4y ago
    I don’t disagree, but their contracts, in my experience, specify a specific amount of time that will be delivered to each engagement that is up front about it not being “full time”. e.g I worked with a non-exec board member who gave us 5 days a month in exchange for a certain amount of equity in the company.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  That's what contractors have been doing since forever. The output requested at a job can often be "not that much". Where you lose me is on employment contracts making this illegal, that's quite a risky proposition. Why not just get jobs as a contractor and be upfront?
  - danw1979 4y ago
    Almost all permanent employment contracts for professional positions in the UK have a “mutuality of obligation” clause which forbids the employee from working for another company at the same time. Contractors usually don’t have this, which is why it’s perfectly legal for them to run two or three concurrent gigs, but when I’ve engaged a a “full time” contractor who is doing this, their performance - the amount they get done vs what is expected given their day rate - is terrible.
- jklm 4y ago
  The 24 they mention in the article are full time it looks like - does that change your mindset either way?
- rangerelf 4y ago
  Why? Why do you say "it drove you up the wall"? A contractor owes you exactly what's on the contract, usually a certain amount of work delivered; what she/he did outside of that is (or should be) of absolutely zero interest to you, unless it's some kind of corporate spying or other illegal or unethical behavior. A full-time employee is usually working based on a certain number of hours, so they owe the company exactly those hours, no more no less; if during those hours they perform satisfactorily, again, anything they do outside those hours should hold zero interest to you. Your coworkers are right: if they can successfully deliver results while juggling multiple jobs, why does that drive you up the wall?
  - danw1979 4y ago
    The problem is, they interview well and start off performing to expectations, but then _something_ happens and the agreed hours (which is basically how all “individual” IT contracts are negotiated and paid in the UK) are just not being worked, stuff doesn’t get delivered on agreed timescales, etc.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  This is pretty much the first time that it is possible to have 2+ main jobs. It has always been common to have a main job and a side gig, a main job and moonlighting in hospitality or service industry. Just get your deliverables in, use separate company laptops. The incentives for overachieving are non-existent, oh wow a 5% bonus/raise dangled in front of you for even more responsibility versus an entire parallel salary and compensation package at the expected contribution level.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  If you want exclusive professional [1] access to an engineer's talents, pay them guaranteed salary + benefits in exchange for them signing a contract that precludes other employment. [1] Many engineers will have side projects that they spend time on anyways. They may even care about & prioritize them more than your projects, no matter how much you pay them!
metadat 4y ago
Discussed yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33198708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33198708 (537 points, 356 comments)
riffic 4y ago
absolutely nothing wrong with working more than one job if you can get away with it. It's not a lifestyle I want to live myself, but more power to anyone who wants or needs to in order to make their livings.
- skybrian 4y ago
  I think if you do that, you need to keep track of your hours, though? Charging two employers for the same hours would be fraudulent.
  - StopHammoTime 4y ago
    When you are salaried, you are rewarded based on your deliverables. If you can deliver two jobs of output to satisfactory results, then who cares. Some employers may require the full 38 hours, but let’s not forget the whole point of salary is for flexibility on behalf of the employee AND the employer. The employer may ask you to work a bit of overtime, but likewise it shouldn’t be expected that the employer “buys” you as a salaried employee. You get benefits like leave and the employer gets benefits such as you turning up every day. They pay you, you deliver results, if you don’t perform you get fired. This is a different argument for contractors who do get paid by the hour so that starts to descend into some very ethical grey areas. Those grey areas mostly exist though because a lot of employees treat contractors like salaried employees (I.e. expectations are the same but no benefits). I could never do it, but there isn’t really anything REALLY wrong with it.
    - skybrian 4y ago
      In principle it could be okay if everyone agrees. There may or may not be something wrong with it, depending on what they agreed to and if they’re lying to anyone about what they’re doing.
    - gruez 4y ago
      >When you are salaried, you are rewarded based on your deliverables. If you can deliver two jobs of output to satisfactory results, then who cares. What you said is true, but only on a practical level. On a theoretical/legal level, it's certainly not true because (most?) salaried position contracts contain clauses that prevent you from holding another job[1][2]. [1] https://www.betterteam.com/employee-contract-template https://www.betterteam.com/employee-contract-template [2] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1141197/000110313204000018/exhibit101.pdf https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1141197/000110313204...

34 points by Deinos 4y ago

danw1979 4y ago

I don’t know what to think about the “overemployment” trend that the pandemic and remote working has ushered in. Most contractors seem to have no mutuality of obligation to their clients and I have friends running two and three gigs who claim their clients are happy. I’ve had contract engineers who were obviously engaging in the practice though, and it drove me up the wall. It just seems so dishonest and at the same time perfectly legal.

MarcelOlsz 4y ago
How many CEO's and "advisors" and board members do you know "juggling" multiple jobs? I think it's "all of them".
- rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  > I think it's "all of them". No. Not all of us.
- danw1979 4y ago
  I don’t disagree, but their contracts, in my experience, specify a specific amount of time that will be delivered to each engagement that is up front about it not being “full time”. e.g I worked with a non-exec board member who gave us 5 days a month in exchange for a certain amount of equity in the company.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
That's what contractors have been doing since forever. The output requested at a job can often be "not that much". Where you lose me is on employment contracts making this illegal, that's quite a risky proposition. Why not just get jobs as a contractor and be upfront?
- danw1979 4y ago
  Almost all permanent employment contracts for professional positions in the UK have a “mutuality of obligation” clause which forbids the employee from working for another company at the same time. Contractors usually don’t have this, which is why it’s perfectly legal for them to run two or three concurrent gigs, but when I’ve engaged a a “full time” contractor who is doing this, their performance - the amount they get done vs what is expected given their day rate - is terrible.
jklm 4y ago
The 24 they mention in the article are full time it looks like - does that change your mindset either way?
rangerelf 4y ago
Why? Why do you say "it drove you up the wall"? A contractor owes you exactly what's on the contract, usually a certain amount of work delivered; what she/he did outside of that is (or should be) of absolutely zero interest to you, unless it's some kind of corporate spying or other illegal or unethical behavior. A full-time employee is usually working based on a certain number of hours, so they owe the company exactly those hours, no more no less; if during those hours they perform satisfactorily, again, anything they do outside those hours should hold zero interest to you. Your coworkers are right: if they can successfully deliver results while juggling multiple jobs, why does that drive you up the wall?
- danw1979 4y ago
  The problem is, they interview well and start off performing to expectations, but then _something_ happens and the agreed hours (which is basically how all “individual” IT contracts are negotiated and paid in the UK) are just not being worked, stuff doesn’t get delivered on agreed timescales, etc.
yieldcrv 4y ago
This is pretty much the first time that it is possible to have 2+ main jobs. It has always been common to have a main job and a side gig, a main job and moonlighting in hospitality or service industry. Just get your deliverables in, use separate company laptops. The incentives for overachieving are non-existent, oh wow a 5% bonus/raise dangled in front of you for even more responsibility versus an entire parallel salary and compensation package at the expected contribution level.
whateveracct 4y ago
If you want exclusive professional [1] access to an engineer's talents, pay them guaranteed salary + benefits in exchange for them signing a contract that precludes other employment. [1] Many engineers will have side projects that they spend time on anyways. They may even care about & prioritize them more than your projects, no matter how much you pay them!

metadat 4y ago

Discussed yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33198708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33198708 (537 points, 356 comments)

riffic 4y ago

absolutely nothing wrong with working more than one job if you can get away with it. It's not a lifestyle I want to live myself, but more power to anyone who wants or needs to in order to make their livings.

skybrian 4y ago
I think if you do that, you need to keep track of your hours, though? Charging two employers for the same hours would be fraudulent.
- StopHammoTime 4y ago
  When you are salaried, you are rewarded based on your deliverables. If you can deliver two jobs of output to satisfactory results, then who cares. Some employers may require the full 38 hours, but let’s not forget the whole point of salary is for flexibility on behalf of the employee AND the employer. The employer may ask you to work a bit of overtime, but likewise it shouldn’t be expected that the employer “buys” you as a salaried employee. You get benefits like leave and the employer gets benefits such as you turning up every day. They pay you, you deliver results, if you don’t perform you get fired. This is a different argument for contractors who do get paid by the hour so that starts to descend into some very ethical grey areas. Those grey areas mostly exist though because a lot of employees treat contractors like salaried employees (I.e. expectations are the same but no benefits). I could never do it, but there isn’t really anything REALLY wrong with it.
  - skybrian 4y ago
    In principle it could be okay if everyone agrees. There may or may not be something wrong with it, depending on what they agreed to and if they’re lying to anyone about what they’re doing.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >When you are salaried, you are rewarded based on your deliverables. If you can deliver two jobs of output to satisfactory results, then who cares. What you said is true, but only on a practical level. On a theoretical/legal level, it's certainly not true because (most?) salaried position contracts contain clauses that prevent you from holding another job[1][2]. [1] https://www.betterteam.com/employee-contract-template https://www.betterteam.com/employee-contract-template [2] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1141197/000110313204000018/exhibit101.pdf https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1141197/000110313204...