6 ms·

All this to say "I'm a contrarian" I don't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty military museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice" "visiting in bad

by elif 4y ago

All this to say "I'm a contrarian" I don't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty military museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice" "visiting in bad weather" "watching bad soccer matches" "eating at the same place three quarters of meals for 8 weeks" I do 4-8 month backpacking trips semi-regularly and try to visit new countries whenever possible... But even I can't find a single piece of appreciable advice from this whole read.

e1g 4y ago
I imagine someone visiting my "home" cities using that strategy, and it's hilarious how wildly incorrect and poor their experience of these places would be. Like a local? Ok, just not like any local I've ever met living here.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Anyone who has ever been a local knows that locals spend time living their life; they rarely go to museums, etc in their own town; and if they do they probably go to specific ones multiple times (the ones that go with their hobbies, say). There is something to "not being a stereotypical tourist" but that's easy enough to do by being polite, and paying attention to what is going on, and wandering off the beaten path now and then. Visiting off-season can be a great deal, especially if you're not concerned with weather (for example, if you're going to be visiting museums in Rome, they will be open during the rain as well as the shine).
  - hooverd 4y ago
    I'm very aware of the nature of my relationship as a tourist, but I do want to be an active participant and not a passive observer.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  I mean looking around where I live (a quiet, fairly middle class suburb), I'm sure they would get bored pretty quickly. There's no stores or landmarks here, just some playgrounds and bits of greenery. People live here, they do business and entertainment elsewhere.
- notahacker 4y ago
  "Living like a local" in most places means spending the majority of your waking hours working to pay rent and much of the rest of it doing household chores, and your rare trips out being more likely to be to McDonalds than to enjoy the local cuisine...
  - randomdata 4y ago
    That's how I like to travel. Stay with someone, help with their chores, go to work when they do (the benefits of WFH), basically mirror the life they live. Those rare trips get compressed somewhat, largely because being able to share the experience with the host means that there is greater desire to make those rare trips happen while I am there as a guest, but not excessively.
    - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
      There used to be (maybe still is) a pretty robust couch surfing crowd in the days before airbnb. I did a decent amount of traveling that way in my 20s around the world and was able to accomplish this that way. Good times.
Scene_Cast2 4y ago
So, two counterpoints. One is that although most people probably won't enjoy it, enough of a fraction will. The other - just like I don't follow Richard Stallman's extremism but find some of his ideas interesting, I think she of the mentality in the blog post could be applicable to most people. For example, staying in a hip neighborhood in Paris for a couple of weeks but taking half a day to visit some niche "people just live here" suburbs or countryside.
openfuture 4y ago
Because, as you no doubt already know, the only useful advice is "just do it" - the whole point is that you are more capable than you think (or I guess not you since you've already put yourself to the test I suspect).
randomdata 4y ago
> I don't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty military museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice" Not in and of itself, you are right, but I do enjoy the happenstance encounters along the way. Like the time I was aimlessly walking through a neighbourhood in a far off city, heard someone holler in my direction, and out of that was invited in to join their barbecue. I don't remember the rest of the walk at all, but I sure do remember the fun people I met and the great time I had there.
- antihero 4y ago
  Yep, you have to create situations with potential for weird and wonderful stuff to happen. If you’re hell bent on following a rigid plan there’s no cracks in between for the plants to grow.
kotlin2 4y ago
You travel a lot and you don't walk around town aimlessly? That's the best part.
- itake 4y ago
  I've cut that down a bit. When I wondered in old town Mombasa, Kenya last year, some people got out of a taxi and warned me to turn around and go back because I was in a very dangerous area for tourists. It was certainly quiet, but it was clean in the city. Living in Seattle, there are certain parts of downtown that I would normally feel comfortable walking through but was warned by locals about gun and drug violence. There are many examples of lost tourists in Mexico or South America that get approached by drug traffickers on YouTube. It is extremely difficult to go wrong in Vietnam, but there are many places that appear peaceful but are actually run by crime.
  - kurthr 4y ago
    I drove a foreign friend through SouthCentral (where the riots started) in the mid 90s. She really liked the neighborhood with big streets and palm trees. I pointed out the bars on the windows and she said her homes had all had bars on the windows growing up. She also liked that there were a lot more people hanging out, until I pointed out it was a school day and the kids on the corner ought to be there instead. Also, that I was blowing stop signs didn't bother her, until I mentioned that we would be expected to buy crack, if we stopped. Of course when I visited her home town and walked up a hill for the view one afternoon, I didn't think that much about a syringes off the side of the trail, but her family lost their minds that I had been in the most dangerous part of the city, "people are killed there all the time". We are terrible about judging dangerous areas outside of our cultural experience. Many westerner's can't even identify a RedLight area in Asia, "Why are all those women wearing such short dresses?", "all those girls (actually boys) are really dressed up nice".
Chris_arnade 4y ago
So I guess compared to you I really am a contrarian.
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unethical_ban 4y ago
The writing just felt "off". To me. Like the incomplete sentences. Mostly. I get what the writer is getting at, and I think some of his ideas are fine. I envy his travel time. And I'll have to make my way to the tips on packing, because the one time I did go overseas, I way overpacked. FWIW I do enjoy walking around town aimlessly - if you haven't done it, you should try. It's how I've experienced Boston, New York, Munich, Belgrade and San Francisco. Of course I find a few places online that I should check out, like the fortress in Belgrade or the Eisbock and gardens in Munich. But "aimless walking" through ubran areas is the essence of peace for me. I am rarely happier.
- ghaff 4y ago
  >the one time I did go overseas, I way overpacked. For urban/semi-urban travel (i.e. don't require a lot of specialized gear/just in case supplies) carry-on is pretty doable for most people--though I wouldn't go as far as tiny backpack. It requires a certain mindset. You're not going to have a lot of outfits and may be dressed on the downscale side if you go to nice restaurants, etc. Make a lot of things do double/triple duty. You may be washing some clothes in the hotel sink. You're prepared to buy something you need in a pinch. I'm not fanatical about it and do carry enough stuff to want to drop off a bag wherever I'm staying but rarely check luggage either.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Indeed. I bought an bag from $fancybrand at REI that doubles as backpack and luggage. It is compressible and is about as large as a carryon bag can be. When I travel via air, I wear the least compressible shoes possible (boots) on the plane and squeeze loafers or tennis shoes in the bag. My blue jeans are upscale enough to look casual but also look well at dinner. And yes, at least one nice shirt is needed for dining out or looking decent at a bar.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      My standard is a 40L travel backpack and a compact shoulder bag that can hold a laptop and/or stuff for walking around town for the day. Recently (pre-pandemic) when I was doing a lot of travel I did optimize my clothing somewhat for synthetics and merino wool that could be easily washed and dried quickly. And, yes, I usually have walking shoes--whether they're trail shoes or leather walking shoes depends on the trip and some sort of very compact light shoe as backup etc. Also a couple little kits that have all sorts of cables, repair items, basic first aid...
localhost 4y ago
People travel for different reasons, and that's OK. Chris' reasons are stated in his post: "This style of travel, of aiming to be a local, isn’t for everyone. I’m blessed with a lot of free time, and it’s best done in weeks, not days." And "Traveling is my education, so I treat the question like choosing which course to take. What do I want to learn about this semester? For me, currently that’s faith and religion. So I’ve been trying to go to places of deep faith, and ones different from what I’m familiar with. To see faith as it’s practiced by the average follower, not by the high priests, or the most sacrosanct. The local mosque rather than the Blue mosque" He really does want to create relationships with the people in the places that he visits. And he's done that for years. His book Dignity chronicles a lot of his writing about the differences between the "front of the classroom" and the "back of the classroom" people. He focuses on trying to just listen and understand how other people live rather than sitting back and judging them based on tiny snippets of their worlds that you see in places like the news. So this is very much on brand for him, and I applaud him for sharing how he does what he does with us. And FWIW he did come from a very Western elite background as well: PhD in particle physics, bond trader on Wall Street before escaping that life at considerable personal cost to live this life of trying to show us how others live.
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- elif 4y ago
  >He really does want to create relationships with the people in the places that he visits. i really appreciate that idea as well. that's why I read the article, seeking ways i could develop more relationships with locals. only, I couldn't appreciate any single piece of advice. I've been to soccer matches and museums and bars, none of them led me to local parties, invitations dinner, sailboat excursions, etc.s for instance i can come up with a few from my experiences: - Hitchhike, even when you have money and there is a bus route, is a great way to make an excuse to have a long conversation with a local. It also allows them the opportunity to feel like they're a good person doing a good thing. - if exploring and you think someone is curious about you, don't keep just walking. take a seat, exaggerate how hot you feel, etc. and often that person will approach and offer you tea or water. - look for local conventions or clubs that are meeting, and spend a few days learning that subculture and attend as a novice. even if its a totally new field for you, people love evangelizing to newbies at conventions.
yodsanklai 4y ago
I think there's a middle ground. Nowadays, with exponential growth in tourism, the most famous places can feel a bit hellish if you don't like crowds. Without going to extremes, it's worth looking for slightly less popular options or avoiding peak times, even if that means getting suboptimal weather.
wongarsu 4y ago
Being a regular at a small selection of bars or restaurants is just good advice on how to make friends. I assume the same can be said about pretending to be an avid fan of a bad soccer team. You could title the blog post "I care about the people, not the place. This is how that affects my travels".
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spfzero 4y ago
I guess there are more than one type of people. Some people like to watch sports for the individual performance of top athletes. Other people, love to watch the game, and to them it doesn't matter much whether the players are in the top 0.01%. Try watching a high school baseball game, and see whether you enjoy the experience as much, or more, than a major league game. Errors just add to the fun!
jccalhoun 4y ago
I'm curious what you do like to do while traveling? I would much rather go to an empty museum than something stuffed full of people like the Louvre and I would much rather go to a local sporting even than a Lakers game or something like that.
maire 4y ago
I also would not go exactly where the author goes, or do what the author does, but I appreciate the stimulation of being taken out of the pre-packaged presentation and into reality. You are a backpacker so you already embrace the spirit of the article. You already have a purpose to your trip that takes you outside of tourist traps. Tourism packages destinations so they all start to look the same. You are not a contrarian. You have an alternate path to the same goal. You can even do this locally (no need to travel). My husband and I started biking and often this takes us to unseen parts of our own community.
glonq 4y ago
I'm not a contrarian, but I to tend to second-guess the bang for the buck out of typical tourist activities. My favorite activities in Paris were 'not going to the louvre' and 'not going up the eiffel tower' :)
dang 4y ago
> All this to say "I'm a contrarian" "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work.": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Arnade is one of the more interesting writers online these days. Tastes vary, of course, but let's try to avoid the middlebrow dismissal thing here. Your comment would be fine without that first bit.
- vhiremath4 4y ago
  Dang, firstly thanks for all you do. Secondly, I don’t even agree with the parent commenter, but I actually like that HN has some of this middlebrow dismissal. It’s unpleasant and goes too far at times, but it also creates an atmosphere where I know I’m going to get a “real” perspective. Not telling you what to do here. Just a proposal in case it changes how you and the squad might want to moderate (or not) going forward! Again, thank you for all that you do.
- elif 4y ago
  i appreciate your feedback, but wouldn't consider my response shallow. I took time to read all of his suggestions and referenced them exhaustively in my critique.
  - dang 4y ago
    The problem was that you reduced all of that ("all this to say") to a single blob of dumbness ("I'm a contrarian") which the OP never actually said. The problem with that kind of comment is it makes discussion more predictable and less interesting. I understand the impulse to take someone's work and reduce it to a single obvious gesture of stupidity - it feels good because it feels like one has explained something and expunged an irritant - but it isn't fair and it isn't what this forum is for. There's another guideline that applies to cases like this too: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
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by elif 4y ago

e1g 4y ago

I imagine someone visiting my "home" cities using that strategy, and it's hilarious how wildly incorrect and poor their experience of these places would be. Like a local? Ok, just not like any local I've ever met living here.

bombcar 4y ago
Anyone who has ever been a local knows that locals spend time living their life; they rarely go to museums, etc in their own town; and if they do they probably go to specific ones multiple times (the ones that go with their hobbies, say). There is something to "not being a stereotypical tourist" but that's easy enough to do by being polite, and paying attention to what is going on, and wandering off the beaten path now and then. Visiting off-season can be a great deal, especially if you're not concerned with weather (for example, if you're going to be visiting museums in Rome, they will be open during the rain as well as the shine).
- hooverd 4y ago
  I'm very aware of the nature of my relationship as a tourist, but I do want to be an active participant and not a passive observer.
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
I mean looking around where I live (a quiet, fairly middle class suburb), I'm sure they would get bored pretty quickly. There's no stores or landmarks here, just some playgrounds and bits of greenery. People live here, they do business and entertainment elsewhere.
notahacker 4y ago
"Living like a local" in most places means spending the majority of your waking hours working to pay rent and much of the rest of it doing household chores, and your rare trips out being more likely to be to McDonalds than to enjoy the local cuisine...
- randomdata 4y ago
  That's how I like to travel. Stay with someone, help with their chores, go to work when they do (the benefits of WFH), basically mirror the life they live. Those rare trips get compressed somewhat, largely because being able to share the experience with the host means that there is greater desire to make those rare trips happen while I am there as a guest, but not excessively.
  - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
    There used to be (maybe still is) a pretty robust couch surfing crowd in the days before airbnb. I did a decent amount of traveling that way in my 20s around the world and was able to accomplish this that way. Good times.

Scene_Cast2 4y ago

So, two counterpoints. One is that although most people probably won't enjoy it, enough of a fraction will. The other - just like I don't follow Richard Stallman's extremism but find some of his ideas interesting, I think she of the mentality in the blog post could be applicable to most people. For example, staying in a hip neighborhood in Paris for a couple of weeks but taking half a day to visit some niche "people just live here" suburbs or countryside.

openfuture 4y ago

Because, as you no doubt already know, the only useful advice is "just do it" - the whole point is that you are more capable than you think (or I guess not you since you've already put yourself to the test I suspect).

randomdata 4y ago

> I don't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty military museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice" Not in and of itself, you are right, but I do enjoy the happenstance encounters along the way. Like the time I was aimlessly walking through a neighbourhood in a far off city, heard someone holler in my direction, and out of that was invited in to join their barbecue. I don't remember the rest of the walk at all, but I sure do remember the fun people I met and the great time I had there.

antihero 4y ago
Yep, you have to create situations with potential for weird and wonderful stuff to happen. If you’re hell bent on following a rigid plan there’s no cracks in between for the plants to grow.

kotlin2 4y ago

You travel a lot and you don't walk around town aimlessly? That's the best part.

itake 4y ago
I've cut that down a bit. When I wondered in old town Mombasa, Kenya last year, some people got out of a taxi and warned me to turn around and go back because I was in a very dangerous area for tourists. It was certainly quiet, but it was clean in the city. Living in Seattle, there are certain parts of downtown that I would normally feel comfortable walking through but was warned by locals about gun and drug violence. There are many examples of lost tourists in Mexico or South America that get approached by drug traffickers on YouTube. It is extremely difficult to go wrong in Vietnam, but there are many places that appear peaceful but are actually run by crime.
- kurthr 4y ago
  I drove a foreign friend through SouthCentral (where the riots started) in the mid 90s. She really liked the neighborhood with big streets and palm trees. I pointed out the bars on the windows and she said her homes had all had bars on the windows growing up. She also liked that there were a lot more people hanging out, until I pointed out it was a school day and the kids on the corner ought to be there instead. Also, that I was blowing stop signs didn't bother her, until I mentioned that we would be expected to buy crack, if we stopped. Of course when I visited her home town and walked up a hill for the view one afternoon, I didn't think that much about a syringes off the side of the trail, but her family lost their minds that I had been in the most dangerous part of the city, "people are killed there all the time". We are terrible about judging dangerous areas outside of our cultural experience. Many westerner's can't even identify a RedLight area in Asia, "Why are all those women wearing such short dresses?", "all those girls (actually boys) are really dressed up nice".

Chris_arnade 4y ago

So I guess compared to you I really am a contrarian.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

unethical_ban 4y ago

The writing just felt "off". To me. Like the incomplete sentences. Mostly. I get what the writer is getting at, and I think some of his ideas are fine. I envy his travel time. And I'll have to make my way to the tips on packing, because the one time I did go overseas, I way overpacked. FWIW I do enjoy walking around town aimlessly - if you haven't done it, you should try. It's how I've experienced Boston, New York, Munich, Belgrade and San Francisco. Of course I find a few places online that I should check out, like the fortress in Belgrade or the Eisbock and gardens in Munich. But "aimless walking" through ubran areas is the essence of peace for me. I am rarely happier.

ghaff 4y ago
>the one time I did go overseas, I way overpacked. For urban/semi-urban travel (i.e. don't require a lot of specialized gear/just in case supplies) carry-on is pretty doable for most people--though I wouldn't go as far as tiny backpack. It requires a certain mindset. You're not going to have a lot of outfits and may be dressed on the downscale side if you go to nice restaurants, etc. Make a lot of things do double/triple duty. You may be washing some clothes in the hotel sink. You're prepared to buy something you need in a pinch. I'm not fanatical about it and do carry enough stuff to want to drop off a bag wherever I'm staying but rarely check luggage either.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Indeed. I bought an bag from $fancybrand at REI that doubles as backpack and luggage. It is compressible and is about as large as a carryon bag can be. When I travel via air, I wear the least compressible shoes possible (boots) on the plane and squeeze loafers or tennis shoes in the bag. My blue jeans are upscale enough to look casual but also look well at dinner. And yes, at least one nice shirt is needed for dining out or looking decent at a bar.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    My standard is a 40L travel backpack and a compact shoulder bag that can hold a laptop and/or stuff for walking around town for the day. Recently (pre-pandemic) when I was doing a lot of travel I did optimize my clothing somewhat for synthetics and merino wool that could be easily washed and dried quickly. And, yes, I usually have walking shoes--whether they're trail shoes or leather walking shoes depends on the trip and some sort of very compact light shoe as backup etc. Also a couple little kits that have all sorts of cables, repair items, basic first aid...

localhost 4y ago

People travel for different reasons, and that's OK. Chris' reasons are stated in his post: "This style of travel, of aiming to be a local, isn’t for everyone. I’m blessed with a lot of free time, and it’s best done in weeks, not days." And "Traveling is my education, so I treat the question like choosing which course to take. What do I want to learn about this semester? For me, currently that’s faith and religion. So I’ve been trying to go to places of deep faith, and ones different from what I’m familiar with. To see faith as it’s practiced by the average follower, not by the high priests, or the most sacrosanct. The local mosque rather than the Blue mosque" He really does want to create relationships with the people in the places that he visits. And he's done that for years. His book Dignity chronicles a lot of his writing about the differences between the "front of the classroom" and the "back of the classroom" people. He focuses on trying to just listen and understand how other people live rather than sitting back and judging them based on tiny snippets of their worlds that you see in places like the news. So this is very much on brand for him, and I applaud him for sharing how he does what he does with us. And FWIW he did come from a very Western elite background as well: PhD in particle physics, bond trader on Wall Street before escaping that life at considerable personal cost to live this life of trying to show us how others live.

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elif 4y ago
>He really does want to create relationships with the people in the places that he visits. i really appreciate that idea as well. that's why I read the article, seeking ways i could develop more relationships with locals. only, I couldn't appreciate any single piece of advice. I've been to soccer matches and museums and bars, none of them led me to local parties, invitations dinner, sailboat excursions, etc.s for instance i can come up with a few from my experiences: - Hitchhike, even when you have money and there is a bus route, is a great way to make an excuse to have a long conversation with a local. It also allows them the opportunity to feel like they're a good person doing a good thing. - if exploring and you think someone is curious about you, don't keep just walking. take a seat, exaggerate how hot you feel, etc. and often that person will approach and offer you tea or water. - look for local conventions or clubs that are meeting, and spend a few days learning that subculture and attend as a novice. even if its a totally new field for you, people love evangelizing to newbies at conventions.

yodsanklai 4y ago

I think there's a middle ground. Nowadays, with exponential growth in tourism, the most famous places can feel a bit hellish if you don't like crowds. Without going to extremes, it's worth looking for slightly less popular options or avoiding peak times, even if that means getting suboptimal weather.

wongarsu 4y ago

Being a regular at a small selection of bars or restaurants is just good advice on how to make friends. I assume the same can be said about pretending to be an avid fan of a bad soccer team. You could title the blog post "I care about the people, not the place. This is how that affects my travels".

deleted 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago

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spfzero 4y ago

I guess there are more than one type of people. Some people like to watch sports for the individual performance of top athletes. Other people, love to watch the game, and to them it doesn't matter much whether the players are in the top 0.01%. Try watching a high school baseball game, and see whether you enjoy the experience as much, or more, than a major league game. Errors just add to the fun!

jccalhoun 4y ago

I'm curious what you do like to do while traveling? I would much rather go to an empty museum than something stuffed full of people like the Louvre and I would much rather go to a local sporting even than a Lakers game or something like that.

maire 4y ago

I also would not go exactly where the author goes, or do what the author does, but I appreciate the stimulation of being taken out of the pre-packaged presentation and into reality. You are a backpacker so you already embrace the spirit of the article. You already have a purpose to your trip that takes you outside of tourist traps. Tourism packages destinations so they all start to look the same. You are not a contrarian. You have an alternate path to the same goal. You can even do this locally (no need to travel). My husband and I started biking and often this takes us to unseen parts of our own community.

glonq 4y ago

I'm not a contrarian, but I to tend to second-guess the bang for the buck out of typical tourist activities. My favorite activities in Paris were 'not going to the louvre' and 'not going up the eiffel tower' :)

dang 4y ago

> All this to say "I'm a contrarian" "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work.": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Arnade is one of the more interesting writers online these days. Tastes vary, of course, but let's try to avoid the middlebrow dismissal thing here. Your comment would be fine without that first bit.

vhiremath4 4y ago
Dang, firstly thanks for all you do. Secondly, I don’t even agree with the parent commenter, but I actually like that HN has some of this middlebrow dismissal. It’s unpleasant and goes too far at times, but it also creates an atmosphere where I know I’m going to get a “real” perspective. Not telling you what to do here. Just a proposal in case it changes how you and the squad might want to moderate (or not) going forward! Again, thank you for all that you do.
elif 4y ago
i appreciate your feedback, but wouldn't consider my response shallow. I took time to read all of his suggestions and referenced them exhaustively in my critique.
- dang 4y ago
  The problem was that you reduced all of that ("all this to say") to a single blob of dumbness ("I'm a contrarian") which the OP never actually said. The problem with that kind of comment is it makes discussion more predictable and less interesting. I understand the impulse to take someone's work and reduce it to a single obvious gesture of stupidity - it feels good because it feels like one has explained something and expunged an irritant - but it isn't fair and it isn't what this forum is for. There's another guideline that applies to cases like this too: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

deleted 4y ago

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