5 ms·

I still use this strategy, though these days, I primarily use Mosaic and Netscape for testing. I tend to browse without JavaScript enabled, except for places I

I still use this strategy, though these days, I primarily use Mosaic and Netscape for testing. I tend to browse without JavaScript enabled, except for places I already trust to not abuse it. And if there is anything blocking me from accessing the page, such as a modal dialog, a cookie notice, a survey, a prompt to sign up for the newsletter, I close the tab. Over time, I have found that type of rude lack of consideration for the reader's cognitive load and ability to correlate highly with low-quality content that is a waste of my time to read, so this practice also saves me a lot of reading time. And every day, my Internet gets better and better. I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it.

exitb 4y ago
Are there any version of Mosaic that are able to handle modern HTTPS?
- josteink 4y ago
  Probably if using a local HTTP proxy to relay the actual traffic?
- II2II 4y ago
  I don't know about Mosaic[1], but there are many alternatives out there. I frequently use elinks as a text only browser since it makes an attempt to layout pages (most pages have some form of layout to handle navigation elemnts these days). There are also browsers that handle graphics, but not scripting or CSS, if that is what you want. [1] I have heard of people trying to get Mosaic to work on modern machines, but I think the efforts were restricted to rebuilding the software rather than adding features.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  Still plenty of websites which run on HTTP. I know mine certainly do. Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about. HTTPS breaks in many circumstances when it's not needed, including on current browsers. You can also use a stripping proxy. Bigger issues I've encountered with actually using Mosaic is that a) it does not support the Host header, so you must have a dedicated IP address, and b) it doesn't like semicolons in then Content-Type header, which most of today's servers include.
  - imiric 4y ago
    > Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about. TLS is not just about security. It also protects the authenticity of your content, ensures privacy and even accessibility for your visitors. Without it, any node between your visitor and your server could inject content and JavaScript to do all sorts of nefarious tracking and profiling. These days there's really no excuse for using plain HTTP on public facing sites. Please rethink your decision.
    - forgotmypw17 4y ago
      Actually, there is a very good excuse: I want to access the content I need with the browser and configuration I currently have, and without the ability to alter it. While the threat of MITM is technically true, thanks to being on a relatively safe networks segment, I have yet to encounter it happening in the real world, except in cases of captive portals, when I actually want it to happen. I think it is largely an over-stated threat for most read-only applications. The impact on accessibility, on the other hand, is real and huge.
      - neurostimulant 4y ago
        You must be lucky. My cellphone carrier used to injects scripts and ads on plain http requests. Imagine seeing ads on wikipedia. Now that https is everywhere, this behavior is largely stop.
        forgotmypw17 4y ago
        I know that ads sometimes get injected for some people, but it has not been an issue for me. I see loud and intrusive ads on Wikipedia already, and it's why I've started using wikiless instead.
        neurostimulant 4y ago
        Are you sure about seeing ads Wikipedia? AFAIK Wikipedia itself doesn't run any ads [1] (except occasional call for donation), so the ads must've come from other source (e.g malicious extensions, malwares that install mitm proxy to inject ads, etc). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Funding_Wikipedia_through_advertisements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Funding_Wikipedia_th...
- danjoredd 4y ago
  Honestly thinking on making a Mosaic clone. Without CSS or Javascript, I imagine it won't be terribly difficult to put together
  - lupire 4y ago
    Why not start by disabling JS and CSS in an existing browser?
    - danjoredd 4y ago
      Im just saying I think making a new Mosaic would be a fun project. Been watching Andreas Kling do his browser hacking lately and it looks like a lot of fun
      - asddubs 4y ago
        you mean andreas kling
        danjoredd 4y ago
        Right. I love his livestreams but I struggle with his name a lot. Apologies
  - mhd 4y ago
    I’ve been quite impressed by the Gemini browser LaGrange[1]. Does it’s own antialiased text rendering straight to SDL. Automatic site coloring as an option. Would be neat to see something like this with basic HTML 3-ish support (basic tables, lists etc) [1]: https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/
  - forgotmypw17 4y ago
    I think it's a great idea! Go for it! Web 2.5 is a thing.
- classichasclass 4y ago
  Bolt it on! Here's XMosaic 2.7b5 with TLS 1.3 on my own SPARC. (Disclosure: my project.) https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/07/crypto-ancienne-20-now-brings-tls-13-to.html https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/07/crypto-ancienne-20-now-b...
dr-detroit 4y ago
narag 4y ago
I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it. You're going to love the qualified version: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeping%20featurism https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeping%20f...
tbran 4y ago
I feel like the strategy of closing sites with newsletter sign-ups, dialog, etc. is just going to waste your time. If I'm searching for something, I just want the information. Not gonna close websites till I find one that has no popups/modals!! Popup Blocker [0] and uBlock Origin for Firefox will do a pretty good job of getting rid of the junk you don't want. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/popup-blocker/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/popup-blocker...
- dwringer 4y ago
  There are pros and cons to the approach. Information from such actively hostile sites tends to be of a lesser quality and of questionable reliability anyway IMHO.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  It may seem that way, but I have found it to be very effective. In my comment, I was thinking of the context of links I click to from HN. But it also works when searching for information. When I close the tab of an unfriendly site, which, remember, likely has lower-quality information than an accessible one, I am immediately freeing myself to click the next link in the search results and get my information from an accessible site with higher-quality content. Given the disparity of the quality of content, it is quite likely that I would have ended up at the latter site anyway.
- checkyoursudo 4y ago
  > I just want the information Certainly a reasonable choice on your part. We all want what we want. I have a friend who, when he goes grocery shopping, grabs the first item he sees from each of the items on his list. As far as I can determine, this is without regard to price, quality, or any other factor.
  - c7b 4y ago
    Statistically speaking, your friend should be getting average products from each category in the long run. Practically speaking, however, the assumptions that go into that statement likely won't hold, as supermarkets go to some lengths to make sure that the first item that meets your eye from any category is one of the pricier options.
SuperSandro2000 4y ago
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  The comment seems overly dismissive. I believe parent raises a valid point.If we accept that we are consumers and capitalism theoretically expects that one is an informed consumer, it is primarily up to us to determine future shape of the landscape. Naturally, what follows seems to be: -we are not informed consumers -informed consumers are a minority -uninformed consumers are a boon to capitalism To you specific point, is it ivory tower to know what you want and make decisions that benefit you specifically and not partake in Zeitgeist just because everyone else is?
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't attack others on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
_notreallyme_ 4y ago
Before closing the tab, I check if View -> Page Style -> No Style gives the text I was interested in reading. If i arrived on the page, chances are that there might be some information I'm looking for.
- m463 4y ago
  thanks, this is fascinating and useful
danjoredd 4y ago
Not to mention people in the country suffer for featurism. In 2009 I had dial-up because broadband was unavailable where I was, and it took as long as 12 minutes to load some pages. I have since moved and no longer rely on dial-up, but I can only imagine how long it would take now with all the bloat happening. Honestly not sure how they do it these days.
layer8 4y ago
> I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it. They actually could have translated it 1:1 as “featuritis”. It basically means the same as “feature creep”.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  I think they're two different, related words. Featuritis, the condition of software having too many features, is caused by featurism, the underconstrained and overemphasized pursuit of features.
vldr 4y ago
When I get obtrusive, unrequested maillist popups, I signup someone from my frequent spammer list. Makes me feel good :)

exitb 4y ago

Are there any version of Mosaic that are able to handle modern HTTPS?

josteink 4y ago
Probably if using a local HTTP proxy to relay the actual traffic?
II2II 4y ago
I don't know about Mosaic[1], but there are many alternatives out there. I frequently use elinks as a text only browser since it makes an attempt to layout pages (most pages have some form of layout to handle navigation elemnts these days). There are also browsers that handle graphics, but not scripting or CSS, if that is what you want. [1] I have heard of people trying to get Mosaic to work on modern machines, but I think the efforts were restricted to rebuilding the software rather than adding features.
forgotmypw17 4y ago
Still plenty of websites which run on HTTP. I know mine certainly do. Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about. HTTPS breaks in many circumstances when it's not needed, including on current browsers. You can also use a stripping proxy. Bigger issues I've encountered with actually using Mosaic is that a) it does not support the Host header, so you must have a dedicated IP address, and b) it doesn't like semicolons in then Content-Type header, which most of today's servers include.
- imiric 4y ago
  > Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about. TLS is not just about security. It also protects the authenticity of your content, ensures privacy and even accessibility for your visitors. Without it, any node between your visitor and your server could inject content and JavaScript to do all sorts of nefarious tracking and profiling. These days there's really no excuse for using plain HTTP on public facing sites. Please rethink your decision.
  - forgotmypw17 4y ago
    Actually, there is a very good excuse: I want to access the content I need with the browser and configuration I currently have, and without the ability to alter it. While the threat of MITM is technically true, thanks to being on a relatively safe networks segment, I have yet to encounter it happening in the real world, except in cases of captive portals, when I actually want it to happen. I think it is largely an over-stated threat for most read-only applications. The impact on accessibility, on the other hand, is real and huge.
    - neurostimulant 4y ago
      You must be lucky. My cellphone carrier used to injects scripts and ads on plain http requests. Imagine seeing ads on wikipedia. Now that https is everywhere, this behavior is largely stop.
      - forgotmypw17 4y ago
        I know that ads sometimes get injected for some people, but it has not been an issue for me. I see loud and intrusive ads on Wikipedia already, and it's why I've started using wikiless instead.
        neurostimulant 4y ago
        Are you sure about seeing ads Wikipedia? AFAIK Wikipedia itself doesn't run any ads [1] (except occasional call for donation), so the ads must've come from other source (e.g malicious extensions, malwares that install mitm proxy to inject ads, etc). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Funding_Wikipedia_through_advertisements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Funding_Wikipedia_th...
danjoredd 4y ago
Honestly thinking on making a Mosaic clone. Without CSS or Javascript, I imagine it won't be terribly difficult to put together
- lupire 4y ago
  Why not start by disabling JS and CSS in an existing browser?
  - danjoredd 4y ago
    Im just saying I think making a new Mosaic would be a fun project. Been watching Andreas Kling do his browser hacking lately and it looks like a lot of fun
    - asddubs 4y ago
      you mean andreas kling
      - danjoredd 4y ago
        Right. I love his livestreams but I struggle with his name a lot. Apologies
- mhd 4y ago
  I’ve been quite impressed by the Gemini browser LaGrange[1]. Does it’s own antialiased text rendering straight to SDL. Automatic site coloring as an option. Would be neat to see something like this with basic HTML 3-ish support (basic tables, lists etc) [1]: https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  I think it's a great idea! Go for it! Web 2.5 is a thing.
classichasclass 4y ago
Bolt it on! Here's XMosaic 2.7b5 with TLS 1.3 on my own SPARC. (Disclosure: my project.) https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/07/crypto-ancienne-20-now-brings-tls-13-to.html https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/07/crypto-ancienne-20-now-b...

dr-detroit 4y ago

narag 4y ago

I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it. You're going to love the qualified version: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeping%20featurism https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeping%20f...

tbran 4y ago

I feel like the strategy of closing sites with newsletter sign-ups, dialog, etc. is just going to waste your time. If I'm searching for something, I just want the information. Not gonna close websites till I find one that has no popups/modals!! Popup Blocker [0] and uBlock Origin for Firefox will do a pretty good job of getting rid of the junk you don't want. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/popup-blocker/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/popup-blocker...

dwringer 4y ago
There are pros and cons to the approach. Information from such actively hostile sites tends to be of a lesser quality and of questionable reliability anyway IMHO.
forgotmypw17 4y ago
It may seem that way, but I have found it to be very effective. In my comment, I was thinking of the context of links I click to from HN. But it also works when searching for information. When I close the tab of an unfriendly site, which, remember, likely has lower-quality information than an accessible one, I am immediately freeing myself to click the next link in the search results and get my information from an accessible site with higher-quality content. Given the disparity of the quality of content, it is quite likely that I would have ended up at the latter site anyway.
checkyoursudo 4y ago
> I just want the information Certainly a reasonable choice on your part. We all want what we want. I have a friend who, when he goes grocery shopping, grabs the first item he sees from each of the items on his list. As far as I can determine, this is without regard to price, quality, or any other factor.
- c7b 4y ago
  Statistically speaking, your friend should be getting average products from each category in the long run. Practically speaking, however, the assumptions that go into that statement likely won't hold, as supermarkets go to some lengths to make sure that the first item that meets your eye from any category is one of the pricier options.

SuperSandro2000 4y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
The comment seems overly dismissive. I believe parent raises a valid point.If we accept that we are consumers and capitalism theoretically expects that one is an informed consumer, it is primarily up to us to determine future shape of the landscape. Naturally, what follows seems to be: -we are not informed consumers -informed consumers are a minority -uninformed consumers are a boon to capitalism To you specific point, is it ivory tower to know what you want and make decisions that benefit you specifically and not partake in Zeitgeist just because everyone else is?
dang 4y ago
Please don't attack others on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

_notreallyme_ 4y ago

Before closing the tab, I check if View -> Page Style -> No Style gives the text I was interested in reading. If i arrived on the page, chances are that there might be some information I'm looking for.

m463 4y ago
thanks, this is fascinating and useful

danjoredd 4y ago

Not to mention people in the country suffer for featurism. In 2009 I had dial-up because broadband was unavailable where I was, and it took as long as 12 minutes to load some pages. I have since moved and no longer rely on dial-up, but I can only imagine how long it would take now with all the bloat happening. Honestly not sure how they do it these days.

layer8 4y ago

> I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it. They actually could have translated it 1:1 as “featuritis”. It basically means the same as “feature creep”.

forgotmypw17 4y ago
I think they're two different, related words. Featuritis, the condition of software having too many features, is caused by featurism, the underconstrained and overemphasized pursuit of features.

vldr 4y ago

When I get obtrusive, unrequested maillist popups, I signup someone from my frequent spammer list. Makes me feel good :)