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Except Huawei and ZTE aren’t any more “subservient” than non-Chinese companies. That, btw, is another aspect of this problem - American companies like Cisco ha

by trasz 4y ago

Except Huawei and ZTE aren’t any more “subservient” than non-Chinese companies. That, btw, is another aspect of this problem - American companies like Cisco have been shown to plant backdoors, while the “subservient” Huawei hadn’t.

skissane 4y ago
> Except Huawei and ZTE aren’t any more “subservient” than non-Chinese companies. That’s not true though. American companies will, on a regular basis, publicly criticise proposed and actual US government policies, and fund third party groups (lobby groups, think-tanks, etc) which do the same. Tell me, how often do Huawei and ZTE publicly criticise proposed and actual Chinese government policies? How much money do they give to groups which publicly criticise the Chinese government? Their failure to do those things is a very real way in which they demonstrate government subservience but Western companies do not.
- trasz 4y ago
  American companies can criticize the government, because it doesn’t matter - in the end they will do whatever they are told, legal or not. Tell me, why are there backdoors in American telco equipment, but not in Chinese? Are those manufacturers planting them _against_ their government will? :-)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pshirshov 4y ago
    Clown
  - pshirshov 4y ago
    Regarding backdoors. I've experienced a MITM attack performed by Huawei 5G CPE. In domestic environment. Other people report that too: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/218425/router-tries-to-manipulate-https-connections https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/218425/router-t... Can you commie-explain that?
    - trasz 4y ago
      It’s already explained in your link. Also this is not infrastructure, which is what we’re talking about.
      - pshirshov 4y ago
        Nope, it's not explained there: 1) These routers do not provide any kind of content filtering features 2) My particular terminal was in bridge mode 3) It's happening rarely on random websites So, if they MITM random SSL sessions with home equipment I can imagine what they do with business infrastructure.
  - skissane 4y ago
    > American companies can criticize the government, because it doesn’t matter If criticism really doesn’t matter, why does the Chinese government show so little tolerance for it? Are they thin-skinned? And, how do you know there are no backdoors in Chinese telco equipment? Even if none have been publicised, that doesn’t mean none exist.
    - trasz 4y ago
      >If criticism really doesn’t matter, why does the Chinese government show so little tolerance for it? Are they thin-skinned? That’s a very good question. I’m guessing it’s cultural, and it’s somewhat similar to what you see in Japan or Korea. And yeah, it’s unfortunate. Also notice how you don’t hear about this problem in context of other countries. Same as you don’t hear about someone who spent four years in prison for merely talking to police when it happens in USA, but you would if it happened in China. Or how everyone in the west knows about Tiananmen, but very few heard about Gwangju Uprising. As for the backdoors - there have been audits, eg by GHCQ, and hadn’t found nothing suspicious. So sure, we can suspect something might have been missed, but for now the score is pretty clear: numerous documented backdoors in infrastructure from US companies, none from Chinese.
      - skissane 4y ago
        > I’m guessing it’s cultural, and it’s somewhat similar to what you see in Japan or Korea. The Japanese and South Korean governments show vastly greater tolerance for public criticism than the Chinese government does. In Tokyo, if one stands on a street corner holding up a sign saying "Fumio Kishida should be sacked"–odds are, you'll just be ignored. In Seoul, one might stand there with a sign saying "Impeach Yoon Suk-yeol" – likewise, people will most likely just ignore you. Try standing on a street corner in Beijing holding up a sign saying "Xi Jinping should be sacked"–how many minutes will pass before you are arrested? So, it isn't East Asian culture in general. It isn't even Chinese culture, because in Taiwan you would not be arrested just for holding up a sign saying "Impeach Tsai Ing-wen". On the other hand, in North Korea, you'd probably be executed for a sign saying "Impeach Kim Jung-un". The thing that North Korea and China have in common, is both are Marxist-Leninist dictatorships. So, isn't the real explanation here, not national culture, but rather Marxism-Leninism? Xi Jinping's intolerance for criticism has a lot in common with that of Leonid Brezhnev. > Or how everyone in the west knows about Tiananmen, but very few heard about Gwangju Uprising. There is a big difference between the Gwangju massacre and the Tiananmen massacre–the South Korean government has repeatedly publicly apologised for Gwangju. Every year, there is an official memorial day to remember the victims of Gwangju, and the government has established a national memorial to remember its victims. In the 1990s, several of the political leaders responsible for Gwangju were convicted, and one received a death sentence (that death sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, and then all the convicts were pardoned.) More recently, the South Korea government has established a national truth commission, for further public investigations of those responsible for the crime. Meanwhile, what has the Chinese government done to publicly apologise for the crime of Tiananmen, to commemorate its victims and punish its perpetrators? It makes complete sense for the world to focus on wrongs for which there is a refusal to acknowledge and apologise and make amends, rather than on wrongs for which many such efforts have been made. The former is far more relevant than the later. > numerous documented backdoors in infrastructure from US companies, none from Chinese Even if it is true that there are zero backdoors in Huawei/ZTE equipment today, that could change tomorrow.

by trasz 4y ago

skissane 4y ago

> Except Huawei and ZTE aren’t any more “subservient” than non-Chinese companies. That’s not true though. American companies will, on a regular basis, publicly criticise proposed and actual US government policies, and fund third party groups (lobby groups, think-tanks, etc) which do the same. Tell me, how often do Huawei and ZTE publicly criticise proposed and actual Chinese government policies? How much money do they give to groups which publicly criticise the Chinese government? Their failure to do those things is a very real way in which they demonstrate government subservience but Western companies do not.

trasz 4y ago
American companies can criticize the government, because it doesn’t matter - in the end they will do whatever they are told, legal or not. Tell me, why are there backdoors in American telco equipment, but not in Chinese? Are those manufacturers planting them _against_ their government will? :-)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pshirshov 4y ago
  Clown
- pshirshov 4y ago
  Regarding backdoors. I've experienced a MITM attack performed by Huawei 5G CPE. In domestic environment. Other people report that too: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/218425/router-tries-to-manipulate-https-connections https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/218425/router-t... Can you commie-explain that?
  - trasz 4y ago
    It’s already explained in your link. Also this is not infrastructure, which is what we’re talking about.
    - pshirshov 4y ago
      Nope, it's not explained there: 1) These routers do not provide any kind of content filtering features 2) My particular terminal was in bridge mode 3) It's happening rarely on random websites So, if they MITM random SSL sessions with home equipment I can imagine what they do with business infrastructure.
- skissane 4y ago
  > American companies can criticize the government, because it doesn’t matter If criticism really doesn’t matter, why does the Chinese government show so little tolerance for it? Are they thin-skinned? And, how do you know there are no backdoors in Chinese telco equipment? Even if none have been publicised, that doesn’t mean none exist.
  - trasz 4y ago
    >If criticism really doesn’t matter, why does the Chinese government show so little tolerance for it? Are they thin-skinned? That’s a very good question. I’m guessing it’s cultural, and it’s somewhat similar to what you see in Japan or Korea. And yeah, it’s unfortunate. Also notice how you don’t hear about this problem in context of other countries. Same as you don’t hear about someone who spent four years in prison for merely talking to police when it happens in USA, but you would if it happened in China. Or how everyone in the west knows about Tiananmen, but very few heard about Gwangju Uprising. As for the backdoors - there have been audits, eg by GHCQ, and hadn’t found nothing suspicious. So sure, we can suspect something might have been missed, but for now the score is pretty clear: numerous documented backdoors in infrastructure from US companies, none from Chinese.
    - skissane 4y ago
      > I’m guessing it’s cultural, and it’s somewhat similar to what you see in Japan or Korea. The Japanese and South Korean governments show vastly greater tolerance for public criticism than the Chinese government does. In Tokyo, if one stands on a street corner holding up a sign saying "Fumio Kishida should be sacked"–odds are, you'll just be ignored. In Seoul, one might stand there with a sign saying "Impeach Yoon Suk-yeol" – likewise, people will most likely just ignore you. Try standing on a street corner in Beijing holding up a sign saying "Xi Jinping should be sacked"–how many minutes will pass before you are arrested? So, it isn't East Asian culture in general. It isn't even Chinese culture, because in Taiwan you would not be arrested just for holding up a sign saying "Impeach Tsai Ing-wen". On the other hand, in North Korea, you'd probably be executed for a sign saying "Impeach Kim Jung-un". The thing that North Korea and China have in common, is both are Marxist-Leninist dictatorships. So, isn't the real explanation here, not national culture, but rather Marxism-Leninism? Xi Jinping's intolerance for criticism has a lot in common with that of Leonid Brezhnev. > Or how everyone in the west knows about Tiananmen, but very few heard about Gwangju Uprising. There is a big difference between the Gwangju massacre and the Tiananmen massacre–the South Korean government has repeatedly publicly apologised for Gwangju. Every year, there is an official memorial day to remember the victims of Gwangju, and the government has established a national memorial to remember its victims. In the 1990s, several of the political leaders responsible for Gwangju were convicted, and one received a death sentence (that death sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, and then all the convicts were pardoned.) More recently, the South Korea government has established a national truth commission, for further public investigations of those responsible for the crime. Meanwhile, what has the Chinese government done to publicly apologise for the crime of Tiananmen, to commemorate its victims and punish its perpetrators? It makes complete sense for the world to focus on wrongs for which there is a refusal to acknowledge and apologise and make amends, rather than on wrongs for which many such efforts have been made. The former is far more relevant than the later. > numerous documented backdoors in infrastructure from US companies, none from Chinese Even if it is true that there are zero backdoors in Huawei/ZTE equipment today, that could change tomorrow.