5 ms·

My experience is quite different in regard to working in Europe. How exactly is hiring a very tedious process? Seemed quite fast and easy to me. And btw, it's

My experience is quite different in regard to working in Europe. How exactly is hiring a very tedious process? Seemed quite fast and easy to me. And btw, it's not that hard to fire a wrong hire. You have few months to do so basically for any reason at all, and afterwards, you can still do it, if you have a good reason to do so.

acatton 4y ago
Europe is 27 countries with uniformized trade laws. There was never any uniformization on labour laws. GP made a huge generalization by saying "in europe" while talking about labour laws. It's like me saying "in asia, (something about the labour market)", there is no such thing. Hiring/firing/Employee-rights are very different between Spain and Czechia.
- rypskar 4y ago
  >>Europe is 27 countries No, Europe is 44 countries the subset of Europe that is EU have 27 members
  - junon 4y ago
    I think it's pretty clear they were referring to the EU. No need for semantics wars.
    - ttoinou 4y ago
      Calling the EU Europe is made on purpose to conflate the two and make it obvious that all countries should unite into this political union. I think it is very useful to point that to people who conflate the two terms
      - junon 4y ago
        I think that's putting words into peoples' mouths.
        ttoinou 4y ago
        It's an ideology in favor of the European Union
        junon 4y ago
        You're being pedantic. It's not an ideology.
      - cassianoleal 4y ago
        Similarly, calling the USA "America" to conflate it with the rest of the continent in order to drive their idea of Latin America being "the back yard of the USA", or, more recently "the front yard".
  - oblio 4y ago
    Technically correct. Russia is about 40% of the continent but few people want to go there, especially under current circumstances, and the remaining 16 countries are either EU associated (Switzerland & co), former members (UK), EU candidate countries, or countries frankly too small and/or poor and/or remote. The EU is the elephant in the room.
- Bayart 4y ago
  The spirit of the law is generally pretty uniform across the EU.
  - mathverse 4y ago
    That might be but it is not a real single market. It is bunch of countries working with a similar framework. Here i am waiting for more than 2 months for a legal contract because my employer is in a different country and does not have a legal entity in my country. EU to a large extent is a failure to nurture talent and multiply capital.
ttoinou 4y ago
After the probation you need a really good reason and it costs a lot of money / paperwork / worker's right etc.
- rvense 4y ago
  Absolutely not true in Denmark. A good reason can be something like "we are eliminating this position for strategic reasons", and the only money it will cost you is the three-six months (depending on how long they've been at the company) that you have to keep paying them, during which they are required to work as normal and act loyally.
  - ttoinou 4y ago
    Good for Denmark !
  - wincy 4y ago
    Isn’t that slavery with extra steps? What if I moved out of the country? This seems bizarre to me as an American. I’d do as little work as possible for that time and be resentful about it.
    - rvense 4y ago
      > Isn’t that slavery with extra steps? That's a pretty wild comparison? > What if I moved out of the country? This seems bizarre to me as an American. I’d do as little work as possible for that time and be resentful about it. Well, things are usually a little more relaxed during that period. The employer is also required to make accommodations for you to find a new job, e.g. allow time off to go to interviews. As for leaving the country or not showing up, sure, the company might have grounds to sue and they could certainly stop paying you in that case, but, y'know, generally people act like adults. There are exceptions to this rule about notices, so a day-to-day firing is possible in extreme circumstances. Like if you're not showing up at all, or blatantly not doing your job, are violent etc., you can be banished from the workplace and not paid from that day. But the point is, if you've been doing your job and get fired, you have the option to be at least somewhat reasonable about it and in return you get three months to find your feet and move on. By far most people take this. Also, in the converse situation, where it's you who wish to leave, the rule is that you give at least one month's notice. This is sometimes not what you want, of course, but I think most people view it as a fair and reasonable trade, especially in light of the rules about getting fired.
fredestine 4y ago
europe is the worst of both worlds. there isnt really protection. and as the years go by it gets worse as our governments vote new law to reduce our protections. let me give you the example of france. when we join a company we can be fired during the first six months with very little real reason. when we want to leave the company we need to give a 3month notice (think about how happy is the new company knowing youll misss a quarter when some of those companies don't even plan their future well - just look GCP hiring freeze suddenly in the middle of a quarter while in a hiring spree one week before). when you get fired most of the time you will get unemployement. 55% of your salary (it is very good but when you plan your life around 100% salary it gets very very challenging to live on 55%). but only for the first 6 months (a new law that concerns mostly white collars...) then it will be degressive so that after a few months you out of luck. note that in europe you pay tax while you work so that you can be paid while unemployed... so the 6month degressive new law is pure stealing from the people and totally evil and because it hits only white collars workers most of the people don't talk about it because it concerns people that are 'well off' in the society while in reality policies like this are a total destruction of the middle class. finding a new job you will compete with people that have this 3 month notice so most of the companies plan hiring around it. also if you are unemployed in europe it will look really bad during your interviews. now compare that to USA. you give 2 week notice, job market is very fluid so you can likely find a new job 2 week after stay there a few months helping the company and then use that time to apply to a new job in a better company. Obviously the french model might be better for low earners/blue collars that do not have a job security. but for everyone else it is really hard to move to another company, managers know that too so they dont need to carrot you into a raise or a promotion as much as they do in US.
- sofixa 4y ago
  It's up to 6 months (3+3 actually, max is 4) for the probationary period, and the notice is up to 3 months. You're also missing that nobody is forcing you to quit to start looking for a new job, the protection is mostly that if the company wants to get rid of you they need to give you at least the same length of notice, giving you extra time on top of the unemployment to find something. Furthermore, in the US model, if you quit you don't get unemployment. Oh, and there's also RSA if you don't have revenues, which can provide some income when unemployment stops.

acatton 4y ago

Europe is 27 countries with uniformized trade laws. There was never any uniformization on labour laws. GP made a huge generalization by saying "in europe" while talking about labour laws. It's like me saying "in asia, (something about the labour market)", there is no such thing. Hiring/firing/Employee-rights are very different between Spain and Czechia.

rypskar 4y ago
>>Europe is 27 countries No, Europe is 44 countries the subset of Europe that is EU have 27 members
- junon 4y ago
  I think it's pretty clear they were referring to the EU. No need for semantics wars.
  - ttoinou 4y ago
    Calling the EU Europe is made on purpose to conflate the two and make it obvious that all countries should unite into this political union. I think it is very useful to point that to people who conflate the two terms
    - junon 4y ago
      I think that's putting words into peoples' mouths.
      - ttoinou 4y ago
        It's an ideology in favor of the European Union
        junon 4y ago
        You're being pedantic. It's not an ideology.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      Similarly, calling the USA "America" to conflate it with the rest of the continent in order to drive their idea of Latin America being "the back yard of the USA", or, more recently "the front yard".
- oblio 4y ago
  Technically correct. Russia is about 40% of the continent but few people want to go there, especially under current circumstances, and the remaining 16 countries are either EU associated (Switzerland & co), former members (UK), EU candidate countries, or countries frankly too small and/or poor and/or remote. The EU is the elephant in the room.
Bayart 4y ago
The spirit of the law is generally pretty uniform across the EU.
- mathverse 4y ago
  That might be but it is not a real single market. It is bunch of countries working with a similar framework. Here i am waiting for more than 2 months for a legal contract because my employer is in a different country and does not have a legal entity in my country. EU to a large extent is a failure to nurture talent and multiply capital.

ttoinou 4y ago

After the probation you need a really good reason and it costs a lot of money / paperwork / worker's right etc.

rvense 4y ago
Absolutely not true in Denmark. A good reason can be something like "we are eliminating this position for strategic reasons", and the only money it will cost you is the three-six months (depending on how long they've been at the company) that you have to keep paying them, during which they are required to work as normal and act loyally.
- ttoinou 4y ago
  Good for Denmark !
- wincy 4y ago
  Isn’t that slavery with extra steps? What if I moved out of the country? This seems bizarre to me as an American. I’d do as little work as possible for that time and be resentful about it.
  - rvense 4y ago
    > Isn’t that slavery with extra steps? That's a pretty wild comparison? > What if I moved out of the country? This seems bizarre to me as an American. I’d do as little work as possible for that time and be resentful about it. Well, things are usually a little more relaxed during that period. The employer is also required to make accommodations for you to find a new job, e.g. allow time off to go to interviews. As for leaving the country or not showing up, sure, the company might have grounds to sue and they could certainly stop paying you in that case, but, y'know, generally people act like adults. There are exceptions to this rule about notices, so a day-to-day firing is possible in extreme circumstances. Like if you're not showing up at all, or blatantly not doing your job, are violent etc., you can be banished from the workplace and not paid from that day. But the point is, if you've been doing your job and get fired, you have the option to be at least somewhat reasonable about it and in return you get three months to find your feet and move on. By far most people take this. Also, in the converse situation, where it's you who wish to leave, the rule is that you give at least one month's notice. This is sometimes not what you want, of course, but I think most people view it as a fair and reasonable trade, especially in light of the rules about getting fired.

fredestine 4y ago

europe is the worst of both worlds. there isnt really protection. and as the years go by it gets worse as our governments vote new law to reduce our protections. let me give you the example of france. when we join a company we can be fired during the first six months with very little real reason. when we want to leave the company we need to give a 3month notice (think about how happy is the new company knowing youll misss a quarter when some of those companies don't even plan their future well - just look GCP hiring freeze suddenly in the middle of a quarter while in a hiring spree one week before). when you get fired most of the time you will get unemployement. 55% of your salary (it is very good but when you plan your life around 100% salary it gets very very challenging to live on 55%). but only for the first 6 months (a new law that concerns mostly white collars...) then it will be degressive so that after a few months you out of luck. note that in europe you pay tax while you work so that you can be paid while unemployed... so the 6month degressive new law is pure stealing from the people and totally evil and because it hits only white collars workers most of the people don't talk about it because it concerns people that are 'well off' in the society while in reality policies like this are a total destruction of the middle class. finding a new job you will compete with people that have this 3 month notice so most of the companies plan hiring around it. also if you are unemployed in europe it will look really bad during your interviews. now compare that to USA. you give 2 week notice, job market is very fluid so you can likely find a new job 2 week after stay there a few months helping the company and then use that time to apply to a new job in a better company. Obviously the french model might be better for low earners/blue collars that do not have a job security. but for everyone else it is really hard to move to another company, managers know that too so they dont need to carrot you into a raise or a promotion as much as they do in US.

sofixa 4y ago
It's up to 6 months (3+3 actually, max is 4) for the probationary period, and the notice is up to 3 months. You're also missing that nobody is forcing you to quit to start looking for a new job, the protection is mostly that if the company wants to get rid of you they need to give you at least the same length of notice, giving you extra time on top of the unemployment to find something. Furthermore, in the US model, if you quit you don't get unemployment. Oh, and there's also RSA if you don't have revenues, which can provide some income when unemployment stops.