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Complex partnerships, mostly funded through leverage, with credit card companies and corporate accounts have been subsidizing the airline industry for decades;

Complex partnerships, mostly funded through leverage, with credit card companies and corporate accounts have been subsidizing the airline industry for decades; not to mention government bailouts. The airline industry needs to stand on its own or fall. That will help solve the carbon problem they have.

ggm 4y ago
I sort of agree, but I think this is strictly orthogonal to the underlying problem . Achieving carbon reduction by removing state subsidies doesn't tackle the problem first class, it achieves it as a second-order effect.
- ianai 4y ago
  So outlaw planes? Ok not literally but I do wonder how scaled back they could be before affecting day to day.
  - ggm 4y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-54018542 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-54018542 A mass grounding of flights during the peak of the 2020 coronavirus pandemic saw CO2 emissions from aviation reduce by up to 60%, according to the Global Carbon Project. So, 60% of aviations contribution to C02 disappeared from the scale of shutdown we had in covid. The first order question would be what is aviations contribution to carbon and what is the contribution of the alternatives, including zoom video conferences.
    - ianai 4y ago
      I meant before society would hit significant pain points. Trains and trucks are logistics. Planes do a little, too, but how much of what planes do actually qualities as critical?
      - ggm 4y ago
        In australia, the painpoint is very close. Few people take trains or drive between Melbourne and Sydney, its one of the worlds most heavily used routes. Lockdown meant nobody was able to drive or go by train. Remove aircraft, the burden on australian norms would be immense. In Europe, a case is being made somewhere between 4h and 2h is a place to say "you should not fly" -France had a small panel of ordinary citizens propose this, and its being dickered down by the government but the principle is there. Mel-Syd is 1.5hr by plane btw. By car its 9 hours. even adding the 1hr either side of flight process costs, its faster than car. We don't have HST. Its a 20+ year dream to build one.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      That people prefer to spend significant amounts of time and money flying for face-to-face meetings is an indication of the perceived utility of zoom video conferences.
prottog 4y ago
> The airline industry needs to stand on its own or fall. The airline industry probably stands next to banking as one of the industries with the highest amount of state interference. Looking at this list[0], there's probably more passenger-miles flown on airlines owned solely or majority by a government than not. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government-owned_airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government-owned_airli...
nocoiner 4y ago
I feel like very little of this comment makes sense? So airlines have debt? What enterprise doesn’t? And their cash flow is provided by customers using credit cards? Again, just like every consumer facing business. What are the airlines supposed to do differently? I can’t figured out your proposed solution, unless it is carbon taxes, which yes, would work quite neatly to price externalities in the airline industry (as well as every other industry).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

ggm 4y ago

I sort of agree, but I think this is strictly orthogonal to the underlying problem . Achieving carbon reduction by removing state subsidies doesn't tackle the problem first class, it achieves it as a second-order effect.

ianai 4y ago
So outlaw planes? Ok not literally but I do wonder how scaled back they could be before affecting day to day.
- ggm 4y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-54018542 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-54018542 A mass grounding of flights during the peak of the 2020 coronavirus pandemic saw CO2 emissions from aviation reduce by up to 60%, according to the Global Carbon Project. So, 60% of aviations contribution to C02 disappeared from the scale of shutdown we had in covid. The first order question would be what is aviations contribution to carbon and what is the contribution of the alternatives, including zoom video conferences.
  - ianai 4y ago
    I meant before society would hit significant pain points. Trains and trucks are logistics. Planes do a little, too, but how much of what planes do actually qualities as critical?
    - ggm 4y ago
      In australia, the painpoint is very close. Few people take trains or drive between Melbourne and Sydney, its one of the worlds most heavily used routes. Lockdown meant nobody was able to drive or go by train. Remove aircraft, the burden on australian norms would be immense. In Europe, a case is being made somewhere between 4h and 2h is a place to say "you should not fly" -France had a small panel of ordinary citizens propose this, and its being dickered down by the government but the principle is there. Mel-Syd is 1.5hr by plane btw. By car its 9 hours. even adding the 1hr either side of flight process costs, its faster than car. We don't have HST. Its a 20+ year dream to build one.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    That people prefer to spend significant amounts of time and money flying for face-to-face meetings is an indication of the perceived utility of zoom video conferences.

prottog 4y ago

> The airline industry needs to stand on its own or fall. The airline industry probably stands next to banking as one of the industries with the highest amount of state interference. Looking at this list[0], there's probably more passenger-miles flown on airlines owned solely or majority by a government than not. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government-owned_airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government-owned_airli...

nocoiner 4y ago

I feel like very little of this comment makes sense? So airlines have debt? What enterprise doesn’t? And their cash flow is provided by customers using credit cards? Again, just like every consumer facing business. What are the airlines supposed to do differently? I can’t figured out your proposed solution, unless it is carbon taxes, which yes, would work quite neatly to price externalities in the airline industry (as well as every other industry).

deleted 4y ago
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