5 ms·

Heaviest element yet detected in an exoplanet atmosphere

83 points by hhs 4y ago

JacobThreeThree 4y ago
>But even so, the scientists were surprised to find barium, which is 2.5 times heavier than iron, in the upper atmospheres of WASP-76 b and WASP-121 b. It's amazing how often it seems that scientists are "surprised" - i.e. their theories were not borne out by the observational evidence. Perhaps because it's surprising, that makes it more headline-worthy, therefore there would be a bias in what gets reported. It would be interesting to see a meta-analysis of the "surprise" factor for study results.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Would you not use surprised if you received results that differed from what you were expecting? I'm surprised something 2.5 time heavier than iron would be in the upper atmosphere at all. Wouldn't that be something that fell back to the surface? Then again, I'm not a planetary scientist type, so I'd probably be surprised much more frequently. It's not like they are shocked or disappointed. To me, it just reads they received info they will now be looking at further than they were expecting to need. Maybe intrigued would be appropriate instead if you consider "surprised" to be as lazy as "very".
- Valgrim 4y ago
  Of course their theories were borne out of observations, that's what theories are, a model of our world that fits past observations. When we make an observation that doesn't fit the model, it's surprising because it's by definition unexpected, but it's also an opportunity to update our existing models. News website tend to focus on the "surprising " word because writers (in this case the PR firm who wrote the press release) have been taught to write "stories" with "characters" who feel "emotions" to engage with the audience, perhaps in a completely opposite way than how researchers themselves describe their discovery in science journals.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  I think the word "surprised" gets a lot of unfair implication added. (Usually in the format, "why are you surprised that..." or "you shouldn't be surprised that..."). "Surprise" just isn't as dramatic an emotion as people seem to imply. It's not like the word "shocked". I might be surprised that a one-in-five occurrence happens. It doesn't mean I had some kind of conviction that it wouldn't.
  - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
    Yes. More like, "I wouldn't have bet on it but ok".
- furyofantares 4y ago
  The whole point is to try to find out stuff we don't already know
- mc32 4y ago
  Surprised might mean "it's within the bounds of possibility but we have not observed it in the wild."
greesil 4y ago
Technology signature?
- Victerius 4y ago
  We need to send a probe to make measurements... *googles WASP-76 b* *640 light years away* Hmmm, how are we going to do this?
  - Grimburger 4y ago
    Slowly and with a lot of patience.
  - selcuka 4y ago
    > 640 light years away Inventing a better telescope would be quicker. Granted we would only see how they looked like ~640 years ago, but that's not a long time for measuring their technology level, especially if their average lifespan is similar to ours.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > but that's not a long time for measuring their technology level, especially if their average lifespan is similar to ours. 2022-640=1382 The age of tech. advances such as water mills and three-crop rotation.
      - prennert 4y ago
        This is just about the time banking became a thing in Italy. Most(?) humans would still be in pre-history. Maybe you could detect increased activity along the silk-road if you look closely. Pollution levels in the atmosphere would still be dominated by volcanic activity. No guarantee that this planet would ever get anywhere...
        bigbillheck 4y ago
        > Most(?) humans would still be in pre-history This is a very non-standard use of the term 'pre-history'.
stall84 4y ago
You have to wonder the certainty of what emission or absorption lines? from that distance .. They feel confident in the instruments they're using .. but.. if it is possible that's wild
- nick478016 4y ago
  They use the Doppler shift of emission lines in the starlight to find exoplanets, due to a planet pulling its star around their mutual center. To the tune of measurement precision in the realm of 1 m/s! It's all pretty wild
xwdv 4y ago
There exists the possibility this barium is actually suspended in the atmosphere through technological means.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  On a 1500 to 2400 degree C planet?
  - xwdv 4y ago
    Especially on such a planet.
- aaronbrethorst 4y ago
  There also exists the possibility that this planet contains donut-farting unicorns.
akomtu 4y ago
A bit of heresy: what makes you think that the element in question is barium and not some exotic particle with a similar absorption spectrum?
- cjensen 4y ago
  Because Occam's Razor. Absorption spectrums have never let us down, and are used all the time. For this one place in the universe to have an exotic particle with an adsorption spectrum is pretty much impossible. To have an adsorption spectrum that is an exact mach for Barium is just adding a second impossible on top of the first. Given the choice between something surprising and a doubly-impossible phenomena, the choice is clear.
  - nwiswell 4y ago
    > Absorption spectrums have never let us down Devil's advocate: we have never had the chance to actually verify an exoplanet absorption spectrum. Could be that they are letting us down every time. In this solar system, yes, absorption spectrums seem to be reliable. Anywhere else is extrapolation.
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      How many years until we verify? 100? 1,000? 10,000?
    - c1ccccc1 4y ago
      Sounds like something we could check empirically. Some cosmic rays are protons from outside of the solar system. We could capture those and compare them with local protons to see if they're actually the same kind of particle. (We can check if two particles are the same kind or not by seeing what happens if we try to put them in the same place. If they're both protons, they should refuse to be put into the same state due to the Pauli exclusion principle.) As far as I know the experiment hasn't actually been done, though.
      - ianai 4y ago
photochemsyn 4y ago
How about something like magenetic field-powered jets erupting from the planet's lower levels constantly dumping the material into the upper atmosphere, kind of like those solar field lines? Jupiter's magnetosphere is pretty impressive: https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA03476 https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA03476 Can't imagine what kind of crazy magnetic field action is going on in ultra-hot gas giants who are so close to their host star that their orbital period is 1-2 days.
- Loughla 4y ago
  >Can't imagine what kind of crazy magnetic field action is going on in ultra-hot gas giants who are so close to their host star that their orbital period is 1-2 days. Vaguely connected to this statement. Can anyone recommend any stories (preferably hard sci-fi, although I'm assuming anything tackling this sort of thing would automatically filter into that genre) regarding exotic elements, extreme conditions in space, or those sorts of things? Like Neutron Star or Cannonball Express by Larry Niven. That sort of thing.
  - photochemsyn 4y ago
    I just read through the recent Hannu Rajanaemi series (Quantum Thief, Fractal Prince, Causal Angel) which is all about that kind of thing. The Iain M. Banks novel "The Algebraist" is set mostly in the atmosphere of a gas giant planet and is pretty hard-sci-fi in outlook and plot.
  - T-A 4y ago
    Since you mention neutron stars, these are must-reads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starquake_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starquake_(novel) Someday I should read Baxter's Xeelee sequence, mentioned under "See also": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee_Sequence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee_Sequence
perihelions 4y ago
Streetlight effect? Per the authors: - "Both WASP-76b and WASP-121b represent some of the highest S/N datasets currently available, the presence in both of the studied planets may indicate that this heavy species can be common in the atmospheres of ultra-hot Jupiters."

83 points by hhs 4y ago

>But even so, the scientists were surprised to find barium, which is 2.5 times heavier than iron, in the upper atmospheres of WASP-76 b and WASP-121 b. It's amazing how often it seems that scientists are "surprised" - i.e. their theories were not borne out by the observational evidence. Perhaps because it's surprising, that makes it more headline-worthy, therefore there would be a bias in what gets reported. It would be interesting to see a meta-analysis of the "surprise" factor for study results.

dylan604 4y ago
Would you not use surprised if you received results that differed from what you were expecting? I'm surprised something 2.5 time heavier than iron would be in the upper atmosphere at all. Wouldn't that be something that fell back to the surface? Then again, I'm not a planetary scientist type, so I'd probably be surprised much more frequently. It's not like they are shocked or disappointed. To me, it just reads they received info they will now be looking at further than they were expecting to need. Maybe intrigued would be appropriate instead if you consider "surprised" to be as lazy as "very".
Valgrim 4y ago
Of course their theories were borne out of observations, that's what theories are, a model of our world that fits past observations. When we make an observation that doesn't fit the model, it's surprising because it's by definition unexpected, but it's also an opportunity to update our existing models. News website tend to focus on the "surprising " word because writers (in this case the PR firm who wrote the press release) have been taught to write "stories" with "characters" who feel "emotions" to engage with the audience, perhaps in a completely opposite way than how researchers themselves describe their discovery in science journals.
happytoexplain 4y ago
I think the word "surprised" gets a lot of unfair implication added. (Usually in the format, "why are you surprised that..." or "you shouldn't be surprised that..."). "Surprise" just isn't as dramatic an emotion as people seem to imply. It's not like the word "shocked". I might be surprised that a one-in-five occurrence happens. It doesn't mean I had some kind of conviction that it wouldn't.
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  Yes. More like, "I wouldn't have bet on it but ok".
furyofantares 4y ago
The whole point is to try to find out stuff we don't already know
mc32 4y ago
Surprised might mean "it's within the bounds of possibility but we have not observed it in the wild."

greesil 4y ago

Technology signature?

Victerius 4y ago
We need to send a probe to make measurements... *googles WASP-76 b* *640 light years away* Hmmm, how are we going to do this?
- Grimburger 4y ago
  Slowly and with a lot of patience.
- selcuka 4y ago
  > 640 light years away Inventing a better telescope would be quicker. Granted we would only see how they looked like ~640 years ago, but that's not a long time for measuring their technology level, especially if their average lifespan is similar to ours.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > but that's not a long time for measuring their technology level, especially if their average lifespan is similar to ours. 2022-640=1382 The age of tech. advances such as water mills and three-crop rotation.
    - prennert 4y ago
      This is just about the time banking became a thing in Italy. Most(?) humans would still be in pre-history. Maybe you could detect increased activity along the silk-road if you look closely. Pollution levels in the atmosphere would still be dominated by volcanic activity. No guarantee that this planet would ever get anywhere...
      - bigbillheck 4y ago
        > Most(?) humans would still be in pre-history This is a very non-standard use of the term 'pre-history'.

stall84 4y ago

You have to wonder the certainty of what emission or absorption lines? from that distance .. They feel confident in the instruments they're using .. but.. if it is possible that's wild

nick478016 4y ago
They use the Doppler shift of emission lines in the starlight to find exoplanets, due to a planet pulling its star around their mutual center. To the tune of measurement precision in the realm of 1 m/s! It's all pretty wild

xwdv 4y ago

There exists the possibility this barium is actually suspended in the atmosphere through technological means.

quickthrower2 4y ago
On a 1500 to 2400 degree C planet?
- xwdv 4y ago
  Especially on such a planet.
aaronbrethorst 4y ago
There also exists the possibility that this planet contains donut-farting unicorns.

akomtu 4y ago

A bit of heresy: what makes you think that the element in question is barium and not some exotic particle with a similar absorption spectrum?

cjensen 4y ago
Because Occam's Razor. Absorption spectrums have never let us down, and are used all the time. For this one place in the universe to have an exotic particle with an adsorption spectrum is pretty much impossible. To have an adsorption spectrum that is an exact mach for Barium is just adding a second impossible on top of the first. Given the choice between something surprising and a doubly-impossible phenomena, the choice is clear.
- nwiswell 4y ago
  > Absorption spectrums have never let us down Devil's advocate: we have never had the chance to actually verify an exoplanet absorption spectrum. Could be that they are letting us down every time. In this solar system, yes, absorption spectrums seem to be reliable. Anywhere else is extrapolation.
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    How many years until we verify? 100? 1,000? 10,000?
  - c1ccccc1 4y ago
    Sounds like something we could check empirically. Some cosmic rays are protons from outside of the solar system. We could capture those and compare them with local protons to see if they're actually the same kind of particle. (We can check if two particles are the same kind or not by seeing what happens if we try to put them in the same place. If they're both protons, they should refuse to be put into the same state due to the Pauli exclusion principle.) As far as I know the experiment hasn't actually been done, though.
    - ianai 4y ago

photochemsyn 4y ago

How about something like magenetic field-powered jets erupting from the planet's lower levels constantly dumping the material into the upper atmosphere, kind of like those solar field lines? Jupiter's magnetosphere is pretty impressive: https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA03476 https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA03476 Can't imagine what kind of crazy magnetic field action is going on in ultra-hot gas giants who are so close to their host star that their orbital period is 1-2 days.

Loughla 4y ago
>Can't imagine what kind of crazy magnetic field action is going on in ultra-hot gas giants who are so close to their host star that their orbital period is 1-2 days. Vaguely connected to this statement. Can anyone recommend any stories (preferably hard sci-fi, although I'm assuming anything tackling this sort of thing would automatically filter into that genre) regarding exotic elements, extreme conditions in space, or those sorts of things? Like Neutron Star or Cannonball Express by Larry Niven. That sort of thing.
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  I just read through the recent Hannu Rajanaemi series (Quantum Thief, Fractal Prince, Causal Angel) which is all about that kind of thing. The Iain M. Banks novel "The Algebraist" is set mostly in the atmosphere of a gas giant planet and is pretty hard-sci-fi in outlook and plot.
- T-A 4y ago
  Since you mention neutron stars, these are must-reads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starquake_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starquake_(novel) Someday I should read Baxter's Xeelee sequence, mentioned under "See also": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee_Sequence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee_Sequence

perihelions 4y ago

Streetlight effect? Per the authors: - "Both WASP-76b and WASP-121b represent some of the highest S/N datasets currently available, the presence in both of the studied planets may indicate that this heavy species can be common in the atmospheres of ultra-hot Jupiters."