4 ms·

I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more y

I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more youthful Gen Z and Boomer crowds; granted my understanding of how “generations” work isn’t a great) feel about the world. I shouldn’t have to to think about dopamine and capitalism when I’m looking for a social network; on the other hand I do, kind of, but being introduced to software or a service shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience as I think it is.

ElevenLathe 4y ago
Do you also feel that other types of art (movies, music, architecture, video games, etc) "shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience"? If not, can you unpack why you think software should be treated differently? I'm not trying to be combative, just to understand.
- the-printer 4y ago
  That’s a good question and it helps me think my way through how Bonfire (at least it’s website) makes me feel. I have long divorced myself from the consumption of film, games and music; so when it’s understood that without the presentation of an emotional experience the appeal of these three things would effectively be neutralized, I’m fine with that. My observations are less targeted at software as an art form. I think it’s more about how it’s being marketed and what the effectiveness of a software’s marketing suggests about its targeted audience. I would be more interested in Bonfire if they had a plain web page that just said for example, “Bonfire is a social networking service that can communicate with the ActivityPub protocol and does X, Y, Z and we are working on W. We named it Bonfire because bonfires are like quaint parties but with a raging flame in the middle of it.” To summarize, maybe I prefer certain software that advertises itself plainly by its merits than…I guess more “psycho-social” sort of attributes?
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    Interesting, I guess I can understand that approach for non-media-like software (not a great coining, but I mean things like operating system kernels, DBMS, batch accounting jobs, etc.). That said, I don't see the point of divorcing media-like software (by which I mean at least video games and social media, like Bonfire, and possibly other types of software) from its emotional content. Just as the entire point of a movie or a record is basically only its emotional content, the entire point of using social media software is the emotional content of the interactions with others, right? And, if the emotion is the point of the software, why is it out of bounds to advertise it with that slant? Movie trailers and novel jackets are entirely emotional in their language. Are those somehow bad or immoral? Or are you simply saying that emotional marketing of software isn't to your personal taste?
    - the-printer 4y ago
      You’re pretty good at this. To chalk it up to personal taste almost undermines the deeper issues I want to bring up in regard to social media software, like how we’re doing so beautifully right now. Perhaps it’s out of bounds because it’s unrealistic. A social network is neither film nor novel. Maybe the issue is that we are talking about how software appeals emotionally to real people where they will engage in real communications with real consequences with the emotional appeal of movie trailers, video games and novels. Ironically the tone that the advertisement of Bonfire for example reminds me of is reminiscent of those fake ads from games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock. They’re almost employing the exact sort of rhetoric that people who try to make a world a better place before shoving everyone down tubes beneath the ocean and sticking needles in their arm use. Is it fair when a social network like Gab or Truth Social behaves the same way? Or is software with contrived emotional slants only acceptable when it appeals to your own personal views?
      - ElevenLathe 4y ago
        I guess I agree that social media apps are in principle very different from works of legacy media like movies or novels. Maybe this means we need to regulate the kinds of advertising they can do (as with cigarette ad regulation), but I kind of doubt that the specific tone of the Bonfire landing page is going to have a big impact on its adoption, which will presumably be socially-driven ("I want to see my friends' posts, and want them to see mine") like all similar apps have been.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more youthful Gen Z and Boomer crowds; Antidepressants advertised using solarpunk cartoons of diverse people growing organic produce in a city park with wind turbines in the background. Everybody dressed in pastel colors, while the plants are neon green.
rambambram 4y ago
I think I feel what you mean. > being introduced to software or a service shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience as I think it is. I found/experienced this when I was writing my own texts/content for a project/startup of mine. There was something pulling on me to write in a more emotional tone and I had to actively cut it back and get more to the point, just call it what it is. A good example is the first sentence of this paragraph; the word before the slash is what I think and the word after the slash is what I initially wrote down. I didn't "found" anything, I had to "experience" it. It's not a "project", but a "startup". I guess I'm influenced by western culture in general and HN-like culture specifically. Is this also what you mean? Am I close? I guess I feel what you mean, but it's hard to put it into words.
- the-printer 4y ago
  I understand what you’re saying and I could see how what your describing can be taken as a derivative effect from what I’ve been describing. I myself lack the proper words to explain it all. It’s just a very visceral reaction. I’m beginning to feel like the way that the Western world expresses itself is at its hyperbolic peak and it’s exposing a lot of our insecurities.
  - rambambram 4y ago
    When I have these visceral reactions to things alike, I found out Venkatesh Rao is already busy figuring them out and trying to put it in words. Usually successfully, if you ask me.

ElevenLathe 4y ago

Do you also feel that other types of art (movies, music, architecture, video games, etc) "shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience"? If not, can you unpack why you think software should be treated differently? I'm not trying to be combative, just to understand.

the-printer 4y ago
That’s a good question and it helps me think my way through how Bonfire (at least it’s website) makes me feel. I have long divorced myself from the consumption of film, games and music; so when it’s understood that without the presentation of an emotional experience the appeal of these three things would effectively be neutralized, I’m fine with that. My observations are less targeted at software as an art form. I think it’s more about how it’s being marketed and what the effectiveness of a software’s marketing suggests about its targeted audience. I would be more interested in Bonfire if they had a plain web page that just said for example, “Bonfire is a social networking service that can communicate with the ActivityPub protocol and does X, Y, Z and we are working on W. We named it Bonfire because bonfires are like quaint parties but with a raging flame in the middle of it.” To summarize, maybe I prefer certain software that advertises itself plainly by its merits than…I guess more “psycho-social” sort of attributes?
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Interesting, I guess I can understand that approach for non-media-like software (not a great coining, but I mean things like operating system kernels, DBMS, batch accounting jobs, etc.). That said, I don't see the point of divorcing media-like software (by which I mean at least video games and social media, like Bonfire, and possibly other types of software) from its emotional content. Just as the entire point of a movie or a record is basically only its emotional content, the entire point of using social media software is the emotional content of the interactions with others, right? And, if the emotion is the point of the software, why is it out of bounds to advertise it with that slant? Movie trailers and novel jackets are entirely emotional in their language. Are those somehow bad or immoral? Or are you simply saying that emotional marketing of software isn't to your personal taste?
  - the-printer 4y ago
    You’re pretty good at this. To chalk it up to personal taste almost undermines the deeper issues I want to bring up in regard to social media software, like how we’re doing so beautifully right now. Perhaps it’s out of bounds because it’s unrealistic. A social network is neither film nor novel. Maybe the issue is that we are talking about how software appeals emotionally to real people where they will engage in real communications with real consequences with the emotional appeal of movie trailers, video games and novels. Ironically the tone that the advertisement of Bonfire for example reminds me of is reminiscent of those fake ads from games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock. They’re almost employing the exact sort of rhetoric that people who try to make a world a better place before shoving everyone down tubes beneath the ocean and sticking needles in their arm use. Is it fair when a social network like Gab or Truth Social behaves the same way? Or is software with contrived emotional slants only acceptable when it appeals to your own personal views?
    - ElevenLathe 4y ago
      I guess I agree that social media apps are in principle very different from works of legacy media like movies or novels. Maybe this means we need to regulate the kinds of advertising they can do (as with cigarette ad regulation), but I kind of doubt that the specific tone of the Bonfire landing page is going to have a big impact on its adoption, which will presumably be socially-driven ("I want to see my friends' posts, and want them to see mine") like all similar apps have been.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

> I suspect that there is a sort of “design language” that more or less unabashedly targets the psycho-social state that many millennials (and perhaps even more youthful Gen Z and Boomer crowds; Antidepressants advertised using solarpunk cartoons of diverse people growing organic produce in a city park with wind turbines in the background. Everybody dressed in pastel colors, while the plants are neon green.

rambambram 4y ago

I think I feel what you mean. > being introduced to software or a service shouldn’t be presented as such an emotional experience as I think it is. I found/experienced this when I was writing my own texts/content for a project/startup of mine. There was something pulling on me to write in a more emotional tone and I had to actively cut it back and get more to the point, just call it what it is. A good example is the first sentence of this paragraph; the word before the slash is what I think and the word after the slash is what I initially wrote down. I didn't "found" anything, I had to "experience" it. It's not a "project", but a "startup". I guess I'm influenced by western culture in general and HN-like culture specifically. Is this also what you mean? Am I close? I guess I feel what you mean, but it's hard to put it into words.

the-printer 4y ago
I understand what you’re saying and I could see how what your describing can be taken as a derivative effect from what I’ve been describing. I myself lack the proper words to explain it all. It’s just a very visceral reaction. I’m beginning to feel like the way that the Western world expresses itself is at its hyperbolic peak and it’s exposing a lot of our insecurities.
- rambambram 4y ago
  When I have these visceral reactions to things alike, I found out Venkatesh Rao is already busy figuring them out and trying to put it in words. Usually successfully, if you ask me.