4 ms·

> the fact that literary prizes are evening news worthy events (cultural effect of books and authors being important even to non-readers) That's probably true

by badpun 4y ago

> the fact that literary prizes are evening news worthy events (cultural effect of books and authors being important even to non-readers) That's probably true in many (most) European countries? Certainly true in ones I know - UK and Poland. It stems from leftist/socialist politics on the continent - the authorities sees their role not only as a policeman/arbiter of people's affairs, but also as a force of enlightenment, promoting education, higher culture etc. Hence, things like literary awards, classical music etc. get a lot of state funding. I'm not entirely convinced it's that great, because for example my taxes are, year after year, funding the local opera in my city (requires large subsidies as ticket revenues are nowhere near enough to cover the costs), of which I will never have any use, as I'm not interested in opera.

rospaya 4y ago
It would be a very ugly world if only things that can make money deserve to exist.
- badpun 4y ago
  I'm not against operas existing, I'm only against them being funded by people against their will. There are many alternative models available - funding via donations from rich people (how it's done in the US), or de-profesionalization of opera (having volunteers with day jobs sing in it, if the ticket sales are not enough to pay their salaries).
  - Tade0 4y ago
    My mother worked as an artisan in a theatre before retirement(I'm Polish BTW). Just like public transport, opera and theatre can't possibly fund itself just from tickets - the price would need to be very high to do so. At the same time donations from rich people are few, far between and wouldn't even cover 1% of the expenses - it's not the XX century anymore and even then I suppose instances of rich people funding entire such organisations were rare. Most musicians (and I've met quite a few during my time in a choir), especially singers already have a day job. In general it boils down to whether you believe a nation has culture worth preserving or should they all just shut up and produce GDP.
    - badpun 4y ago
      > Just like public transport, opera and theatre can't possibly fund itself just from tickets - the price would need to be very high to do so. Most things can't fund themselves with tickets. That's why most things that could theoretically exist (if we had infinite resources), don't exist in practice. Why should we make exceptions for things like professional opera and professional theatre? I for one am a big fan of Magic: the Gathering, and would love more MtG events in my city - but I'm not expecting the government to fund them. > At the same time donations from rich people are few, far between and wouldn't even cover 1% of the expenses - it's not the XX century anymore and even then I suppose instances of rich people funding entire such organisations were rare. Perhaps it's a sign that opera or theatre are really a thing of the past and hardly anyone cares about them anymore? Well-known polish actor (Jerzy Sztuhr) mentioned once that what he liked about Italy is that going to the opera was part of upper middle-class snobbery there. It was just expected of you, if you wanted to believe to a certain social strata. He liked it, because it meant more funding for his profession - but is it good for society? Shouldn't people do the things they like and not the things that they expect will make impressions on others? Sounds like a miserable way to live to me. > In general it boils down to whether you believe a nation has culture worth preserving or should they all just shut up and produce GDP. At least in my city, most of what is played in my local opera house are foreign operas (https://opera-slaska.pl/spektakle https://opera-slaska.pl/spektakle)... So, large part of the money goes to preserving the culture of other nations. Also, a country having culture does not mean that money must be spent on it. Plenty of culture can be made without any monetary exchange. In fact, that's how culture was made through the majority of human history - people playing music at their houses, or doing amateur theatre in their village or town etc. In fact, that tradition died very recently, with wide dissemination of commercial music via radio (1920s in the US, little later in Europe). Since then, people preffered to sit and passively listen to a broadcast of a recording of some professionals doing music, instead of doing it themselves. Before that, up to the beginning of XX century though, town were full of music made by people themselves.
      - Tade0 4y ago
        > Why should we make exceptions for things like professional opera and professional theatre? Because that is our cultural heritage and it at least preserves the know-how necessary to perform it. It's notable that our most prestigious cultural event - the International Chopin Piano Competition - is largely publicly funded. You can think of it as a form of branding - just applied to entire nations. > Well-known polish actor (Jerzy Sztuhr) mentioned once that what he liked about Italy is that going to the opera was part of upper middle-class snobbery there. I happened to have spent four years in Bologna - exactly where Stuhr went in the 80s - and have been in the opera there because my neighbour(old man) had an, ahem, monthly subscription of sorts, which awarded him discounts and he invited me along because his wife couldn't go that time. Does that strike you as an upper-middle-class thing? My experience is that especially in Italy people participate in culture much more than around here - it's what makes their national brand strong despite longstanding economic issues. > At least in my city, most of what is played in my local opera house are foreign operas Most of the artistic value in opera is the performance which, looking at the cast, is still firmly Polish. Singers often sing in languages that are entirely foreign to them - even if there's a sizeable amount of material written in their own.
  - UnpossibleJim 4y ago
    Sometimes you have to make airplane noises to make a baby eat its food in the same way you have to convince the broader public that money isn't the only thing that is important in life. Family, friends, art, nature and philosophy are more important than making money, though seldom realized until people are on their death beds... I've never heard of anyone laying there dying saying, "I should have devoted my life to making more money", but those that did often wish they devoted their life to one of the items in the list above.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  On the other hand, if, say, an opera cannot attract a sufficient audience to balance their books, why should they be kept afloat by the taxpayer (who obviously isn't interested otherwise there would be a sufficient audience...)? They must be forced to program at least a sufficient number of popular and commercially successful shows to pay the bills and finance the more demanding ones (to continue on the opera example). It's not necessarily about making money but the market does not lie: To be able to balance the books is the acid test when it comes to seeing if there is an actual, viable interest in something.
easytiger 4y ago
> Certainly true in ones I know - UK and Poland. It stems from leftist/socialist politics 1. No it doesn't 2. You've picked two of the least socialist places in Europe to demonstrate
- badpun 4y ago
  > 1. No it doesn't Thanks for clearing it up...
  - easytiger 4y ago
    No problem. Feel free to enquire if you need more.
- simonh 4y ago
  Maybe, but compared to the US they're hotbeds of rampant leftism. Probably a good 1/3 or more of UK conservatives would vote Democrat if it came right down to it.
  - easytiger 4y ago
    You've nailed it.
  - joshuaissac 4y ago
    Compared to the US, almost everywhere in Europe is a hotbed of rampant leftism. The US Democratic Party is pretty right wing by European standards, and arguably more right wing than the UK Conservative Party. But compared to the rest of Europe, Poland and the UK are right wing.
    - badpun 4y ago
      > Poland and the UK are right wing. I don't know details about UK, but Polish labor laws are quite strong (in terms of protecting the workers), which is no suprise, given that they were created in 1974, i.e. under the Communist regime (similar for public housing, education, tenant protection etc. BTW - all written by communists and not changed much since). I wouldn't be surprised if they were stronger than in Denmark or Sweden, where the policies (from what I've read) focus on helping the unemployed/laid off, but don't meddle into the employee-employer relationship as much.
jhoechtl 4y ago
> It stems from leftist/socialist politics on the continent - the authorities sees their role not only as a policeman/arbiter of people's affairs, but also as a force of enlightenment, promoting education, higher culture etc I highlight that for our republican readers of the Americas
- badpun 4y ago
  I mean, it sounds very nice in theory, and is nice to some degree in practice (having free, decent university-level education, up to masters and phd level, is amazing), but, underneath it, there are strong classist assumptions. The authorities must assume that they're the smarter/better than regular people and they know better what is good for people that the people know themselves. They're basically modern neo-aristocracy, and, in for example Poland, they are often explicitly descendants of the land owner families of old (when nobles' land was confiscated in the XIX century, the noble/land owner class transformed into leftist inteligensia class, whose one of highest ideals was bringing englightenment to the unwashed masses). In UK, it is even more obvious, as the landlords' lands were never confiscated and the aristocrats are still there, playing huge role in politics. All in all, completely different history and dynamics than in the US, with a completely different result.
  - hikingsimulator 4y ago
    This idea of remaining aristocraties/bourgeoisies isn't solely a Continental Europe thing, all things being considered. The US also has its dynasties in politics, culture/media, and industry -- Clintons, Rockefellers, Kennedys, etc. Wherever you are, wealth and power accrue and are inherited.
iancmceachern 4y ago
There are lots of places that don't have operas, you could move there. You are likely to miss out on some other services though, that's life, you gotta take the good with "the bad", opera in this case.
sumol 4y ago
To only do the things that are useful and profitable inevitably takes us to dead-ends where humans end up behaving like little more than animals in the jungle, the law of the strongest, living for the next meal and reproduction, surviving and that's it. Most of it can be seen as finite games in the sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games . But culture can be on another level. It's an investment in the possibility that we can progressively do better than mere animals - that we can realize our human potential. That's why culture exists, it's a difficult and hardly profitable work in progress for our improvement as a species.

by badpun 4y ago

rospaya 4y ago

It would be a very ugly world if only things that can make money deserve to exist.

badpun 4y ago
I'm not against operas existing, I'm only against them being funded by people against their will. There are many alternative models available - funding via donations from rich people (how it's done in the US), or de-profesionalization of opera (having volunteers with day jobs sing in it, if the ticket sales are not enough to pay their salaries).
- Tade0 4y ago
  My mother worked as an artisan in a theatre before retirement(I'm Polish BTW). Just like public transport, opera and theatre can't possibly fund itself just from tickets - the price would need to be very high to do so. At the same time donations from rich people are few, far between and wouldn't even cover 1% of the expenses - it's not the XX century anymore and even then I suppose instances of rich people funding entire such organisations were rare. Most musicians (and I've met quite a few during my time in a choir), especially singers already have a day job. In general it boils down to whether you believe a nation has culture worth preserving or should they all just shut up and produce GDP.
  - badpun 4y ago
    > Just like public transport, opera and theatre can't possibly fund itself just from tickets - the price would need to be very high to do so. Most things can't fund themselves with tickets. That's why most things that could theoretically exist (if we had infinite resources), don't exist in practice. Why should we make exceptions for things like professional opera and professional theatre? I for one am a big fan of Magic: the Gathering, and would love more MtG events in my city - but I'm not expecting the government to fund them. > At the same time donations from rich people are few, far between and wouldn't even cover 1% of the expenses - it's not the XX century anymore and even then I suppose instances of rich people funding entire such organisations were rare. Perhaps it's a sign that opera or theatre are really a thing of the past and hardly anyone cares about them anymore? Well-known polish actor (Jerzy Sztuhr) mentioned once that what he liked about Italy is that going to the opera was part of upper middle-class snobbery there. It was just expected of you, if you wanted to believe to a certain social strata. He liked it, because it meant more funding for his profession - but is it good for society? Shouldn't people do the things they like and not the things that they expect will make impressions on others? Sounds like a miserable way to live to me. > In general it boils down to whether you believe a nation has culture worth preserving or should they all just shut up and produce GDP. At least in my city, most of what is played in my local opera house are foreign operas (https://opera-slaska.pl/spektakle https://opera-slaska.pl/spektakle)... So, large part of the money goes to preserving the culture of other nations. Also, a country having culture does not mean that money must be spent on it. Plenty of culture can be made without any monetary exchange. In fact, that's how culture was made through the majority of human history - people playing music at their houses, or doing amateur theatre in their village or town etc. In fact, that tradition died very recently, with wide dissemination of commercial music via radio (1920s in the US, little later in Europe). Since then, people preffered to sit and passively listen to a broadcast of a recording of some professionals doing music, instead of doing it themselves. Before that, up to the beginning of XX century though, town were full of music made by people themselves.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      > Why should we make exceptions for things like professional opera and professional theatre? Because that is our cultural heritage and it at least preserves the know-how necessary to perform it. It's notable that our most prestigious cultural event - the International Chopin Piano Competition - is largely publicly funded. You can think of it as a form of branding - just applied to entire nations. > Well-known polish actor (Jerzy Sztuhr) mentioned once that what he liked about Italy is that going to the opera was part of upper middle-class snobbery there. I happened to have spent four years in Bologna - exactly where Stuhr went in the 80s - and have been in the opera there because my neighbour(old man) had an, ahem, monthly subscription of sorts, which awarded him discounts and he invited me along because his wife couldn't go that time. Does that strike you as an upper-middle-class thing? My experience is that especially in Italy people participate in culture much more than around here - it's what makes their national brand strong despite longstanding economic issues. > At least in my city, most of what is played in my local opera house are foreign operas Most of the artistic value in opera is the performance which, looking at the cast, is still firmly Polish. Singers often sing in languages that are entirely foreign to them - even if there's a sizeable amount of material written in their own.
- UnpossibleJim 4y ago
  Sometimes you have to make airplane noises to make a baby eat its food in the same way you have to convince the broader public that money isn't the only thing that is important in life. Family, friends, art, nature and philosophy are more important than making money, though seldom realized until people are on their death beds... I've never heard of anyone laying there dying saying, "I should have devoted my life to making more money", but those that did often wish they devoted their life to one of the items in the list above.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
On the other hand, if, say, an opera cannot attract a sufficient audience to balance their books, why should they be kept afloat by the taxpayer (who obviously isn't interested otherwise there would be a sufficient audience...)? They must be forced to program at least a sufficient number of popular and commercially successful shows to pay the bills and finance the more demanding ones (to continue on the opera example). It's not necessarily about making money but the market does not lie: To be able to balance the books is the acid test when it comes to seeing if there is an actual, viable interest in something.

easytiger 4y ago

> Certainly true in ones I know - UK and Poland. It stems from leftist/socialist politics 1. No it doesn't 2. You've picked two of the least socialist places in Europe to demonstrate

badpun 4y ago
> 1. No it doesn't Thanks for clearing it up...
- easytiger 4y ago
  No problem. Feel free to enquire if you need more.
simonh 4y ago
Maybe, but compared to the US they're hotbeds of rampant leftism. Probably a good 1/3 or more of UK conservatives would vote Democrat if it came right down to it.
- easytiger 4y ago
  You've nailed it.
- joshuaissac 4y ago
  Compared to the US, almost everywhere in Europe is a hotbed of rampant leftism. The US Democratic Party is pretty right wing by European standards, and arguably more right wing than the UK Conservative Party. But compared to the rest of Europe, Poland and the UK are right wing.
  - badpun 4y ago
    > Poland and the UK are right wing. I don't know details about UK, but Polish labor laws are quite strong (in terms of protecting the workers), which is no suprise, given that they were created in 1974, i.e. under the Communist regime (similar for public housing, education, tenant protection etc. BTW - all written by communists and not changed much since). I wouldn't be surprised if they were stronger than in Denmark or Sweden, where the policies (from what I've read) focus on helping the unemployed/laid off, but don't meddle into the employee-employer relationship as much.

jhoechtl 4y ago

> It stems from leftist/socialist politics on the continent - the authorities sees their role not only as a policeman/arbiter of people's affairs, but also as a force of enlightenment, promoting education, higher culture etc I highlight that for our republican readers of the Americas

badpun 4y ago
I mean, it sounds very nice in theory, and is nice to some degree in practice (having free, decent university-level education, up to masters and phd level, is amazing), but, underneath it, there are strong classist assumptions. The authorities must assume that they're the smarter/better than regular people and they know better what is good for people that the people know themselves. They're basically modern neo-aristocracy, and, in for example Poland, they are often explicitly descendants of the land owner families of old (when nobles' land was confiscated in the XIX century, the noble/land owner class transformed into leftist inteligensia class, whose one of highest ideals was bringing englightenment to the unwashed masses). In UK, it is even more obvious, as the landlords' lands were never confiscated and the aristocrats are still there, playing huge role in politics. All in all, completely different history and dynamics than in the US, with a completely different result.
- hikingsimulator 4y ago
  This idea of remaining aristocraties/bourgeoisies isn't solely a Continental Europe thing, all things being considered. The US also has its dynasties in politics, culture/media, and industry -- Clintons, Rockefellers, Kennedys, etc. Wherever you are, wealth and power accrue and are inherited.

iancmceachern 4y ago

There are lots of places that don't have operas, you could move there. You are likely to miss out on some other services though, that's life, you gotta take the good with "the bad", opera in this case.

sumol 4y ago

To only do the things that are useful and profitable inevitably takes us to dead-ends where humans end up behaving like little more than animals in the jungle, the law of the strongest, living for the next meal and reproduction, surviving and that's it. Most of it can be seen as finite games in the sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games . But culture can be on another level. It's an investment in the possibility that we can progressively do better than mere animals - that we can realize our human potential. That's why culture exists, it's a difficult and hardly profitable work in progress for our improvement as a species.