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> The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. You can and should address this. It would be ins

> The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. You can and should address this. It would be insane to fire someone and not explain why.

foldr 4y ago
Really? I think it’s generally considered bad business etiquette to publicly speak about why someone was fired, beyond something very generic such as “performance-related reasons”. Once someone has left the company there is very little point in making critical comments about them, as it’s too late to change anything.
- staticassertion 4y ago
  I wouldn't explain why in detail/ be critical, but I would have a meeting to address what happened. Having been in this position when someone gets fired people get nervous - they ask "are we doing OK on money?" and things like that, which you can address.
- ido 4y ago
  Yes but it gives the remaining people a mark on what is acceptable or not acceptable. If you fired someone for bad performance they now know that bad performance will not be tolerated (or at least not forever). If you fired them for being unprofessional or for bad behaviour the rest now know that there is a consequence for such behaviour.
  - foldr 4y ago
    They know that what you perceive as bad performance will not be tolerated. And that’s if they assume that you’re telling the truth.
    - ido 4y ago
      If your team at a startup of <=10 people assumes you are lying or that you have no idea how someone performs (to the point of firing a good performer for bad performance) you've got much bigger problems than that employee.
      - foldr 4y ago
        I don't think so. There can be good reasons not to tell the whole truth about why someone was fired, and it's normal for managers to have only a rough idea of how well people are performing, even in a small company.
    - scott_w 4y ago
      If you're the boss then "what you perceive" as poor performance and "what is" poor performance are effectively the same thing. Companies aren't democracies were the team decides on what the bar is. The role of the lead / manager / owner is to set that bar and help the team to reach it.
      - foldr 4y ago
        It's certainly possible for the boss to base their evaluation on mistaken beliefs. For example, they might think Employee A is largely responsible for a delay in releasing Feature X when in fact it was Employee B. I have to say though, this whole discussion is a fascinating insight into what appears to be the thought process of many managers and/or founders.
        scott_w 4y ago
        Who was responsible for a delay isn't what's being asked at all. What's being asked is: "I have an employee who isn't producing the outputs requested of them in a timely manner, what should I do?" This has nothing to do with Feature X or Feature Y. They also highlighted behavioural issues. These are all within the scope of a leader to determine.
        foldr 4y ago
        I understand that. The point is just that a boss isn't infallible in evaluating the performance of their employees. I wasn't expecting that to be a controversial statement, but you seemed to be challenging it. As to whether or not the person who asked the question is right, it's obviously impossible for us to know.
        scott_w 4y ago
        My response was in the context of "what your team members perceive" to be performance. My response was quite simply: "you get what you measure." Your team will respond to your perception by focusing on improving in areas that you perceive to be markers of good performance.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
>> The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. > You can and should address this. Except that you can't address this. You can say whatever you want, but it won't result in onlookers knowing why you did what you did. You were probably lying.
muzani 4y ago
I think it's very rare to give reasons for firing someone. If someone was a bad performer, they team knows it's because of bad performance, but reasons given will be "cost cutting", "personal matters", or "they've moved to a better project." If someone was fired right before vesting, and the reason given was "bad performance", everyone "knows" that management is just being cheap.
- ido 4y ago
  If someone was a bad performer, they team knows it's because of bad performance, but reasons given will be "cost cutting", "personal matters", or "they've moved to a better project." If I fire someone for bad performance I will absolutely tell the team that's why i fired them. I may not tell people outside the team (I don't want to bad mouth my former employee) but the team deserves the truth.
  - muzani 4y ago
    When I see someone getting fired for performance, usually the team has been complaining about them (in performance reviews or 1-1). So it's no surprise to the team and the reason isn't given. When someone has poor but not terrible performance, it's usually accompanied by a second factor (high salary, absence). In that case, the nicer reason is usually given even though we know they were not faring that. There also tends to be a bit of theatre before someone is fired for bad performance. "Are you sure you fixed the bug?! Give me a video. Which PR? Which line?"

foldr 4y ago

Really? I think it’s generally considered bad business etiquette to publicly speak about why someone was fired, beyond something very generic such as “performance-related reasons”. Once someone has left the company there is very little point in making critical comments about them, as it’s too late to change anything.

staticassertion 4y ago
I wouldn't explain why in detail/ be critical, but I would have a meeting to address what happened. Having been in this position when someone gets fired people get nervous - they ask "are we doing OK on money?" and things like that, which you can address.
ido 4y ago
Yes but it gives the remaining people a mark on what is acceptable or not acceptable. If you fired someone for bad performance they now know that bad performance will not be tolerated (or at least not forever). If you fired them for being unprofessional or for bad behaviour the rest now know that there is a consequence for such behaviour.
- foldr 4y ago
  They know that what you perceive as bad performance will not be tolerated. And that’s if they assume that you’re telling the truth.
  - ido 4y ago
    If your team at a startup of <=10 people assumes you are lying or that you have no idea how someone performs (to the point of firing a good performer for bad performance) you've got much bigger problems than that employee.
    - foldr 4y ago
      I don't think so. There can be good reasons not to tell the whole truth about why someone was fired, and it's normal for managers to have only a rough idea of how well people are performing, even in a small company.
  - scott_w 4y ago
    If you're the boss then "what you perceive" as poor performance and "what is" poor performance are effectively the same thing. Companies aren't democracies were the team decides on what the bar is. The role of the lead / manager / owner is to set that bar and help the team to reach it.
    - foldr 4y ago
      It's certainly possible for the boss to base their evaluation on mistaken beliefs. For example, they might think Employee A is largely responsible for a delay in releasing Feature X when in fact it was Employee B. I have to say though, this whole discussion is a fascinating insight into what appears to be the thought process of many managers and/or founders.
      - scott_w 4y ago
        Who was responsible for a delay isn't what's being asked at all. What's being asked is: "I have an employee who isn't producing the outputs requested of them in a timely manner, what should I do?" This has nothing to do with Feature X or Feature Y. They also highlighted behavioural issues. These are all within the scope of a leader to determine.
        foldr 4y ago
        I understand that. The point is just that a boss isn't infallible in evaluating the performance of their employees. I wasn't expecting that to be a controversial statement, but you seemed to be challenging it. As to whether or not the person who asked the question is right, it's obviously impossible for us to know.
        scott_w 4y ago
        My response was in the context of "what your team members perceive" to be performance. My response was quite simply: "you get what you measure." Your team will respond to your perception by focusing on improving in areas that you perceive to be markers of good performance.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

>> The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. > You can and should address this. Except that you can't address this. You can say whatever you want, but it won't result in onlookers knowing why you did what you did. You were probably lying.

muzani 4y ago

I think it's very rare to give reasons for firing someone. If someone was a bad performer, they team knows it's because of bad performance, but reasons given will be "cost cutting", "personal matters", or "they've moved to a better project." If someone was fired right before vesting, and the reason given was "bad performance", everyone "knows" that management is just being cheap.

ido 4y ago
If someone was a bad performer, they team knows it's because of bad performance, but reasons given will be "cost cutting", "personal matters", or "they've moved to a better project." If I fire someone for bad performance I will absolutely tell the team that's why i fired them. I may not tell people outside the team (I don't want to bad mouth my former employee) but the team deserves the truth.
- muzani 4y ago
  When I see someone getting fired for performance, usually the team has been complaining about them (in performance reviews or 1-1). So it's no surprise to the team and the reason isn't given. When someone has poor but not terrible performance, it's usually accompanied by a second factor (high salary, absence). In that case, the nicer reason is usually given even though we know they were not faring that. There also tends to be a bit of theatre before someone is fired for bad performance. "Are you sure you fixed the bug?! Give me a video. Which PR? Which line?"