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you are overlooking the motives of a power-tripping California Board for Professional Engineers member, is what you are overlooking. those people (power-trippi

you are overlooking the motives of a power-tripping California Board for Professional Engineers member, is what you are overlooking. those people (power-tripping people) do not make decisions based on intelligence or good judgement; they have the power to enforce a rule and they are going to enforce it no matter what the consequences are. if you think this is not possible or is unlikely, I recommend you work in a small office somewhere for a year. even the slightest hint of an idea that a person has power over you will often make that person absolutely drunk with power. what this Engineering organization is trying to do was tried a few years ago by some other Engineer organization somewhere and the engineer organization in question said something to the effect of "only engineers are allowed to do this, and we say who gets to call themselves engineers" and they lost quite resoundingly. it was wonderful, truly. in that state and that field, neither of which I can remember now (getting old) anyone can say they are an engineer and be hired to do the work that this organization for engineers controlled for so long. they got a big head, they squeezed the wrong person, and they lost it all in court. they no longer are able to control who can call themselves an engineer; the state redefined it as "one who practices engineering" or something like that. I hope that happens in this case as well.

faeriechangling 4y ago
I presume this is the same type of person who tries to outlaw people calling themselves "software engineers"
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  I mean, for what it's worth, when software engineers meet the standards of quality of other engineers, then let's talk about whether the title is appropriate or not. Right now anyone can call themselves a software engineer and deploy code that can literally kill people (hello Tesla "self" "driving" software "engineers" in the audience) with very little liability whatsoever.
  - vasco 4y ago
    So fine those people or arrest them if you can prove something. Would they be better engineers if they did the same thing but paid a mandatory yearly membership fee to some board?
  - bhawks 4y ago
    I wasn't aware that Tesla or the other self driving car companies opened their platforms and let anyone deploy code to their entire fleet (or even personally owned vehicles). The existing bar for requiring occupational licensing is way to low and abused by rent seeking cartels. (Eg funeral planners, cosmetology industry, unarmed security guards, animal trainers, etc etc...) Is there really overwhelming societal benefit for establishing licensing for software engineers? Are we not already paying enough for the role in general?
  - robocat 4y ago
    Why is there such a bullshit troll-level cliche that software engineers are not real engineers? I can look at most mechanical design, and find multiple flaws. I can look at a car and see fatal flaws. Do the mechanical engineers at Tesla have different individual legal liability from software engineers for design flaws? All Engineers make safety compromises all the time. Sure, some software is shit, but plenty of software is also solidly engineered. Plenty of other engineers do shit work too - we generally only hear about the most egregious failures. From what I see, other engineers now depend on the software models they use. CAD, structural, circuit design, everything. Get over it. I think the definition of engineering is making good compromises. It isn’t about safety. Plenty of other disciplines work without liability producing shonky outputs. Safety is just another compromise. A federal court disagree with you: “Courts have long recognized that the term ‘engineer’ has a generic meaning separate from ‘professional engineer,’” the court reasoned, and the word engineer “cannot become inherently misleading simply because a state deems it so.” “In a free society, government agencies do not have the authority to rewrite the dictionary. Oregon cannot declare the word ‘engineer’ off-limits to the thousands of Oregonians who, like Mats, are engineers.” Etymology: mid-14c., enginour, "constructor of military engines," from Old French engigneor "engineer, architect, maker of war-engines; schemer" (12c.), from Late Latin ingeniare (see engine); general sense of "inventor, designer" is recorded from early 15c.; civil sense, in reference to public works, is recorded from c. 1600 but not the common meaning of the word until 19c (hence lingering distinction as civil engineer). Meaning "locomotive driver" is first attested 1832, American English. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li... Disclaimer: I have an Electrical & Electronic Engineering Degree. Edit: oh, and the certification of engineers becomes somewhat irrelevant when they are from outside your jurisdiction. Most imported goods and services contain engineering decisions where liability is dealt with through other legal means than certification. Certification matters in only a few engineering disciplines. In Christchurch where I live, a building collapsed in the 2010 Earthquake, and the civil engineer hasn’t had any formal penalties. He also designed some fibreglass roofs for sewage treatment plant, and the roofs caught fire a few years back and that has caused a heap of trouble! https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-insights/ctv-alan-reay-complaint-timeline-of-events/ https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-insights/ctv-alan-reay-co... As a generalisation NZ is not a very litigious society, and less punishment focused than say the US which has 4x the incarceration rate (people in prison).
deleted 4y ago
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KennyBlanken 4y ago
No, it's because he's not putting disclaimers on the maps that they're not legal/official. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33185765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33185765 Edit: "diagrams lying around my house" aren't relevant as you're not trying to sell them.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  does Zillow? does Google Maps? do the maps created by homeowners themselves with the help of the state of California have this disclaimer? no. none of them do. this is a power-tripping moron not liking this particular guy for some reason and deciding to be being an ass.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Why should they need a disclaimer? In most cases it is the presence or absence of a certification that matters. Building plans need to specify approval by a professional engineer. Similarly, medical device designs need tractability to an approving engineer. Alternatively, I have countless diagrams around my house on paper and napkins, do I need to put a disclaimer on each one?
  - Gibbon1 4y ago
    > Similarly, medical device designs need tractability to an approving engineer. You got a cite for that? medical devices I think would fall in the the category where 'trust me I'm a professional engineer' doesn't even begin to cut it.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I'm not sure what part you are skeptical of. Can you clarify?
mindslight 4y ago
Maybe you're thinking of Mats Järlström who challenged red light cameras in Oregon based on simple math, stated he was an "engineer" but never held himself out as a "Professional Engineer", and was legally harassed by the Oregon board?

faeriechangling 4y ago

I presume this is the same type of person who tries to outlaw people calling themselves "software engineers"

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
I mean, for what it's worth, when software engineers meet the standards of quality of other engineers, then let's talk about whether the title is appropriate or not. Right now anyone can call themselves a software engineer and deploy code that can literally kill people (hello Tesla "self" "driving" software "engineers" in the audience) with very little liability whatsoever.
- vasco 4y ago
  So fine those people or arrest them if you can prove something. Would they be better engineers if they did the same thing but paid a mandatory yearly membership fee to some board?
- bhawks 4y ago
  I wasn't aware that Tesla or the other self driving car companies opened their platforms and let anyone deploy code to their entire fleet (or even personally owned vehicles). The existing bar for requiring occupational licensing is way to low and abused by rent seeking cartels. (Eg funeral planners, cosmetology industry, unarmed security guards, animal trainers, etc etc...) Is there really overwhelming societal benefit for establishing licensing for software engineers? Are we not already paying enough for the role in general?
- robocat 4y ago
  Why is there such a bullshit troll-level cliche that software engineers are not real engineers? I can look at most mechanical design, and find multiple flaws. I can look at a car and see fatal flaws. Do the mechanical engineers at Tesla have different individual legal liability from software engineers for design flaws? All Engineers make safety compromises all the time. Sure, some software is shit, but plenty of software is also solidly engineered. Plenty of other engineers do shit work too - we generally only hear about the most egregious failures. From what I see, other engineers now depend on the software models they use. CAD, structural, circuit design, everything. Get over it. I think the definition of engineering is making good compromises. It isn’t about safety. Plenty of other disciplines work without liability producing shonky outputs. Safety is just another compromise. A federal court disagree with you: “Courts have long recognized that the term ‘engineer’ has a generic meaning separate from ‘professional engineer,’” the court reasoned, and the word engineer “cannot become inherently misleading simply because a state deems it so.” “In a free society, government agencies do not have the authority to rewrite the dictionary. Oregon cannot declare the word ‘engineer’ off-limits to the thousands of Oregonians who, like Mats, are engineers.” Etymology: mid-14c., enginour, "constructor of military engines," from Old French engigneor "engineer, architect, maker of war-engines; schemer" (12c.), from Late Latin ingeniare (see engine); general sense of "inventor, designer" is recorded from early 15c.; civil sense, in reference to public works, is recorded from c. 1600 but not the common meaning of the word until 19c (hence lingering distinction as civil engineer). Meaning "locomotive driver" is first attested 1832, American English. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li... Disclaimer: I have an Electrical & Electronic Engineering Degree. Edit: oh, and the certification of engineers becomes somewhat irrelevant when they are from outside your jurisdiction. Most imported goods and services contain engineering decisions where liability is dealt with through other legal means than certification. Certification matters in only a few engineering disciplines. In Christchurch where I live, a building collapsed in the 2010 Earthquake, and the civil engineer hasn’t had any formal penalties. He also designed some fibreglass roofs for sewage treatment plant, and the roofs caught fire a few years back and that has caused a heap of trouble! https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-insights/ctv-alan-reay-complaint-timeline-of-events/ https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-insights/ctv-alan-reay-co... As a generalisation NZ is not a very litigious society, and less punishment focused than say the US which has 4x the incarceration rate (people in prison).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

KennyBlanken 4y ago

No, it's because he's not putting disclaimers on the maps that they're not legal/official. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33185765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33185765 Edit: "diagrams lying around my house" aren't relevant as you're not trying to sell them.

naikrovek 4y ago
does Zillow? does Google Maps? do the maps created by homeowners themselves with the help of the state of California have this disclaimer? no. none of them do. this is a power-tripping moron not liking this particular guy for some reason and deciding to be being an ass.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Why should they need a disclaimer? In most cases it is the presence or absence of a certification that matters. Building plans need to specify approval by a professional engineer. Similarly, medical device designs need tractability to an approving engineer. Alternatively, I have countless diagrams around my house on paper and napkins, do I need to put a disclaimer on each one?
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  > Similarly, medical device designs need tractability to an approving engineer. You got a cite for that? medical devices I think would fall in the the category where 'trust me I'm a professional engineer' doesn't even begin to cut it.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I'm not sure what part you are skeptical of. Can you clarify?

mindslight 4y ago

Maybe you're thinking of Mats Järlström who challenged red light cameras in Oregon based on simple math, stated he was an "engineer" but never held himself out as a "Professional Engineer", and was legally harassed by the Oregon board?