4 ms·

The business lead propaganda in the USA is insanely effective. Point to data, and folks still try to justify why unions bad (anecdotes, deflection, etc.). Poi

by diob 4y ago

The business lead propaganda in the USA is insanely effective. Point to data, and folks still try to justify why unions bad (anecdotes, deflection, etc.). Point to overseas success, well, USA is exceptional wouldn't work here. Rather than argue, just ask them what would change their mind? Otherwise the line will always move.

planetsprite 4y ago
As goes the value-based conception of deservedness in America. Your worth == your net worth. Why should the capital owners, who are providing money and benefits to their employees cede further their assurance those employees are infinitely replicable? They are, aren't they, without the artifice of a union. In China there's the notion of the Mandate of Heaven, a philosophy that whoever is currently ruling is the ruler justified by god, evidenced by the fact that the universe, or god, has allowed that person to become the ruler. The general American capitalist philosophy applies this on an individual level. One's impoverishment or lack thereof is a justified realization of their inherent worth. If they were worth more, they wouldn't be employees, they'd be founders, calling the shots, right?
- mistrial9 4y ago
  maybe a psychological summary for adults involved, but no.. labor and business law is convoluted and many-times very specific, and you can win in court with either, presented competently. "make your fate"
hedora 4y ago
How does the behavior of European unions prove that the big national unions in the US aren't corrupt? Switching the US to be open shop would change my mind. This would allow people to easily switch away from or negotiate with abusive unions. The unions I have dealt with have universally been more abusive than my employers, to the point where employers would try to sneak unauthorized employee benefits through contract loopholes. In one case the union agrees to let the company hire non-union labor (with capped, low pay and benefits) to do the jobs of union employees with seniority that refused to work and could not be fired. If you think my repeated personal experiences with multiple national unions are all anecdotal outliers, then explain why wildcat strikes have become common in the US in recent years.
- anonyme-honteux 4y ago
  I'm not from the US so I may offer the viewpoint of an outsider It seems pretty obvious to me that if you find that some US unions are rather bad, which is probably true because most of everything is bad, the right solution would be to strengthen the good ones. And if really there aren't any good ones, a good solution would be to organize to create better ones based on what has worked in the history of the labor movement united States. And based on what is working abroad, especial in more democratic societies like in Scandinavia This is how it has always worked. No worker right we take for granted - and in the US you are missing some! - has ever been gifted to us. They happened because a small group of people decided to organize and do something about it. Not saying that's easy, but the base principle is pretty simple and according to the research paper - and history in general - clearly worth it. And to be transparent, if someone says to me that what I describe is impossible, i will listen to the arguments, but my baseline assumption would be that he spreads corporate propaganda, or worse, is victim of it.
- vasco 4y ago
  Unions outside of the US are also full of corruption, at least the 3 that I have information from my family members. One of them was the union representative in their branch, and after a few years left the union altogether after seeing what goes on and that none of the organizers actually care about doing something. In general members extracted extra vacation days that were given to do union work and that's it. Unions are just like political parties after a while, the people that get involved in them have a particular personality, and pretty much none of them think you should take pride in the quality of your work, it's generally people who are very sour and see only enemies in their work life. Otherwise they'd be doing the work and getting rewarded for it.
  - anonyme-honteux 4y ago
    What is strange though is that we hear all the time about unions being sometimes full of corruption, but not about the other political players. Aren't the democratic and the republican party sometimes corrupted? What about the Koch Brothers and the Tobacco companies and the Bitcoin/Blockchain sector and the fossil fuel companies and the alcool companies? What about the tech monopolies? What about everyone that has a political stake in everything? Who decided it was important to associate corruption with the unions and only the unions?
RHSeeger 4y ago
> Point to data, and folks still try to justify why unions bad (anecdotes, deflection, etc.). As with most thing, unions have both good points and bad points. Your comment reads like it's saying "we can show they are objectively better with data, but (mistaken) people still try to justify why they're bad". It comes across, to me at least, as intentionally misleading.
theGnuMe 4y ago
America suffers from two psychological delusions: 1. I too can be a millionaire. 2. Bucket of crabs.

by diob 4y ago

planetsprite 4y ago

As goes the value-based conception of deservedness in America. Your worth == your net worth. Why should the capital owners, who are providing money and benefits to their employees cede further their assurance those employees are infinitely replicable? They are, aren't they, without the artifice of a union. In China there's the notion of the Mandate of Heaven, a philosophy that whoever is currently ruling is the ruler justified by god, evidenced by the fact that the universe, or god, has allowed that person to become the ruler. The general American capitalist philosophy applies this on an individual level. One's impoverishment or lack thereof is a justified realization of their inherent worth. If they were worth more, they wouldn't be employees, they'd be founders, calling the shots, right?

mistrial9 4y ago
maybe a psychological summary for adults involved, but no.. labor and business law is convoluted and many-times very specific, and you can win in court with either, presented competently. "make your fate"

hedora 4y ago

How does the behavior of European unions prove that the big national unions in the US aren't corrupt? Switching the US to be open shop would change my mind. This would allow people to easily switch away from or negotiate with abusive unions. The unions I have dealt with have universally been more abusive than my employers, to the point where employers would try to sneak unauthorized employee benefits through contract loopholes. In one case the union agrees to let the company hire non-union labor (with capped, low pay and benefits) to do the jobs of union employees with seniority that refused to work and could not be fired. If you think my repeated personal experiences with multiple national unions are all anecdotal outliers, then explain why wildcat strikes have become common in the US in recent years.

anonyme-honteux 4y ago
I'm not from the US so I may offer the viewpoint of an outsider It seems pretty obvious to me that if you find that some US unions are rather bad, which is probably true because most of everything is bad, the right solution would be to strengthen the good ones. And if really there aren't any good ones, a good solution would be to organize to create better ones based on what has worked in the history of the labor movement united States. And based on what is working abroad, especial in more democratic societies like in Scandinavia This is how it has always worked. No worker right we take for granted - and in the US you are missing some! - has ever been gifted to us. They happened because a small group of people decided to organize and do something about it. Not saying that's easy, but the base principle is pretty simple and according to the research paper - and history in general - clearly worth it. And to be transparent, if someone says to me that what I describe is impossible, i will listen to the arguments, but my baseline assumption would be that he spreads corporate propaganda, or worse, is victim of it.
vasco 4y ago
Unions outside of the US are also full of corruption, at least the 3 that I have information from my family members. One of them was the union representative in their branch, and after a few years left the union altogether after seeing what goes on and that none of the organizers actually care about doing something. In general members extracted extra vacation days that were given to do union work and that's it. Unions are just like political parties after a while, the people that get involved in them have a particular personality, and pretty much none of them think you should take pride in the quality of your work, it's generally people who are very sour and see only enemies in their work life. Otherwise they'd be doing the work and getting rewarded for it.
- anonyme-honteux 4y ago
  What is strange though is that we hear all the time about unions being sometimes full of corruption, but not about the other political players. Aren't the democratic and the republican party sometimes corrupted? What about the Koch Brothers and the Tobacco companies and the Bitcoin/Blockchain sector and the fossil fuel companies and the alcool companies? What about the tech monopolies? What about everyone that has a political stake in everything? Who decided it was important to associate corruption with the unions and only the unions?

RHSeeger 4y ago

> Point to data, and folks still try to justify why unions bad (anecdotes, deflection, etc.). As with most thing, unions have both good points and bad points. Your comment reads like it's saying "we can show they are objectively better with data, but (mistaken) people still try to justify why they're bad". It comes across, to me at least, as intentionally misleading.

theGnuMe 4y ago

America suffers from two psychological delusions: 1. I too can be a millionaire. 2. Bucket of crabs.