9 ms·

Carmack: “There’s a bunch that I’m grumpy about” in virtual reality

42 points by batguano 4y ago

giantg2 4y ago
I'm finding that I'm grumpy about most new videogames. Graphics are prioritized over game play. Everything is about loot boxes and skins. A lot of the multi-player seems like the person with the best connection always wins (connection has always been a factor, but seem like it got worse). I have little hope for most VR stuff, especially the Metaverse. AR seems like a more interesting and useful realm to me.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- sn0w_crash 4y ago
  This will inevitably lead to the another video game crash. And hopefully, many of these studios will be wiped off the face of the earth
- Spivak 4y ago
  Stop playing AAA games. - Loop Hero - Crosscode - Brotato - Slay the Spire - FTL - Rock of Ages - They are Billions - Super Auto Pets - Inscription - Unpacking - Enter the Gungeon - Coffee Talk - Undertale - Human Resource Machine All these games have super unique game loops.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Yeah, that's why I said most. I seem to like the smaller/simpler games now. Table Top Racing was a fun one for me - Forza meets Mario Kart.
    - Kranar 4y ago
      Most games are not AAA games.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Nor will most people know they exist.
        JohnBooty 4y ago
        You would essentially have to intentionally avoid knowledge of indie games to stay in the dark. I can't think of another art form / medium in history where it was so easy to discover and enjoy the work of relative outsiders.
        Kranar 4y ago
        The top selling game of all time is an indie game (Minecraft), the top selling game of 2022 is an indie game (Elden Ring), and the top selling game of 2017 was also an indie game (PUBG). It's likely a stretch to say that The Witcher 3 is an indie game, but The Witcher 2 is an indie game and that also sold very well. Looking over the list of top selling games of all time, many of them are indie games.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    +1 I consider video games contemporary art, particularly when they come from small (or single-dev) studios, you can really see there's a conscious effort to extrude some sentiment or story through this medium, and the results is usually amazing! A couple personal favorites to add to your list: - Cuphead (ok, this one had a big budget from the start but I wouldn't consider it AAA) - Crypt of the NecroDancer - Factorio - Fez - Getting Over It - Journey - Monument Valley - Stardew Valley - SUPERHOT - Sword & Sorcery - VVVVVV
    - kranke155 4y ago
      Vídeo games are not just contemporary art - they are THE dominant contemporary artwork of our age. Yes some people choose to ignore it but having studied the arts - painting, writing, even filmmaking at this stage are more and more subservient to videogames. Virtually everything that’s new and exciting in art in the last 20 years have been videogames. If you’re brilliant and you want to make art these days you generally go for videogames I’d say. As a Filmmaker myself it’s interesting that reading the history of film it similarly wasn’t recognised as the dominant artform of its age / in fact quite the opposite it was considered commercial product only. It was only with a Frederico Fellini film being banned for instance that freedom of expression was allowed in film. That was because in breaking with precedent courts decided that film was art! It took Fellini to make them do that. Or so goes the history I’ve heard.
      - phaedrix 4y ago
        Kentucky Route Zero
    - agentwiggles 4y ago
      Factorio finally got its hooks into me lately - the first two times I played it I bounced off it. Now I'm hopelessly addicted, scribbling train tracks in my notebook... What a game.
    - trafficante 4y ago
      Just want to add Outer Wilds to the list of “video games as art”. Coincidentally, it has a fantastic VR mod called NomaiVR. Just do yourself a favor and avoid all spoilers before playing it. Definitely in my top 5 games of the decade and one that I wish I could erase my memory to play again.
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    There are many great ones on this list, but I just have to chime in and express my undying love for FTL. I have this special place in my heart for games that set out to deliver a specific experience and succeed spectacularly, and FTL is one my favorite examples. You really feel like the spaceship captain, or maybe like a ship AI, making these quick decisions about how to distribute power among your ship's systems, and swapping out equipment for different situations. There are just all these little maneuvers you learn that fit the theme so perfectly - like when you vent oxygen from a part of the ship to put out a fire, or when you vent oxygen while manipulating bulkheads to suffocate enemy boarders. When you pull some power out of the shields to get a quick evasion boost by powering the engine when a missile is fired. Or mind control the enemy pilot to reduce their evasion before you fire your lasers. It just does such a great job of delivering that spaceship experience. Some other games that I hold dear among my "delivers their intended experience" category include Subnautica (experience of being dumped into an alien water world, gradually gaining comfort in the environment, discovering a mystery), DOOM 2016 (experience being an insane unstoppable demon slayer), and Batman: Arkham City (experience being the goddamn Batman). I realize that _all_ games are delivering some experience, but I think these are special standouts in a special sense. They go for some specific thing and use the gameplay to really put you in that scenario. There are many fun and good games that don't do this in the same sense and are more focused on mechanics or story than "experience".
    - zem 4y ago
      i don't game much at all, but i recently picked up stellaris, and it definitely nails the experience (in its case, of being a civilisation developing in a sprawling, chaotic galactic neighbourhood)
- cratermoon 4y ago
  You've Been Played https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/books/review/youve-been-played-adrian-hon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/books/review/youve-been-p...
robswc 4y ago
I can't blame him. I really love VR. It's still in that period (maybe it never leaves?) where as amazing as it is, its just too much of a hassle to "set up" or "tear down." Maybe I'm just lazy tho, lol
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yazzku 4y ago
The Carmack talk: https://www.facebook.com/RealityLabs/videos/792254305349862/ https://www.facebook.com/RealityLabs/videos/792254305349862/ Looks silly as fuck. Why would anyone want to watch a half-body ghost avatar shaking like they're high on coke in a cartoonish 3D setting when you can just video stream the real guy? God, that MZ avatar looks cringe af.
- origin_path 4y ago
  What's crazy is the low frame rate on that video. Isn't VR all about super high FPS?
  - yazzku 4y ago
    Yeah. Coke is about super high too.
trafficante 4y ago
As an average VR enjoyer, I’m absolutely baffled by the current state of VR gaming. 2018-2020: barely limping along compared to the early hype, but still getting 2-3 “groundbreaking” titles per year that mostly live up to expectations Spring 2020: Half Life Alyx is released to a flurry of (mostly deserved) 10/10s across the board October 2020: FB releases the Quest 2 and proceeds to beat the combined lifetime sales of the rest of the VR industry in under 18 months. Essentially moving the same number of units as the PS5 during that period (to be fair, Sony had shortage issues) Winter 2020-Present: imagine a tumbleweed lazily rolling through a deserted casino town Most of 2021 was a cope period where enthusiasts believed the drought was due to game publishers pivoting to the Quest’s mobile chipset. But at this point, especially after the Quest Pro reveal and the second Connect with no updates on the two announced AAA titles (Assassin’s Creed and GTA:SA), sentiment seems to be shifting towards a desperate hope that PSVR2 will save the VR gaming industry. What happened? 2020 brought the first AAA 10/10 VR exclusive title AND new hardware that absolutely demolished the sales of everything else released to date. And yet the market is SIGNIFICANTLY more dead than it was in 2019. I can’t explain it. It’s not even a Nintendo Wii situation where it became clear the massive install base wasn’t interested in third party titles: there hasn’t even been a single big third party title released! RE4 VR and Bonelab come the closest and, by all accounts, they both sold extremely well.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Same thing that happens during every 3d/vr hype cycle. A new generation of people realised it's not that great, uncomfortable, hard to share in person, and expensive. The novelty wore off and the machines got shelved.
  - trafficante 4y ago
    Right, this does seem to be a cyclical thing. My point is that it would be extremely weird for every developer to simultaneously exit the VR market immediately AFTER Alyx gets multiple GotY nods and new hardware sells multiple millions of units. And yet, apparently, this is what happened. On some level I suspect FB buying up a dozen of the biggest VR game studios and letting them languish is a big part of the problem.

42 points by batguano 4y ago

I'm finding that I'm grumpy about most new videogames. Graphics are prioritized over game play. Everything is about loot boxes and skins. A lot of the multi-player seems like the person with the best connection always wins (connection has always been a factor, but seem like it got worse). I have little hope for most VR stuff, especially the Metaverse. AR seems like a more interesting and useful realm to me.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sn0w_crash 4y ago
This will inevitably lead to the another video game crash. And hopefully, many of these studios will be wiped off the face of the earth
Spivak 4y ago
Stop playing AAA games. - Loop Hero - Crosscode - Brotato - Slay the Spire - FTL - Rock of Ages - They are Billions - Super Auto Pets - Inscription - Unpacking - Enter the Gungeon - Coffee Talk - Undertale - Human Resource Machine All these games have super unique game loops.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Yeah, that's why I said most. I seem to like the smaller/simpler games now. Table Top Racing was a fun one for me - Forza meets Mario Kart.
  - Kranar 4y ago
    Most games are not AAA games.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Nor will most people know they exist.
      - JohnBooty 4y ago
        You would essentially have to intentionally avoid knowledge of indie games to stay in the dark. I can't think of another art form / medium in history where it was so easy to discover and enjoy the work of relative outsiders.
      - Kranar 4y ago
        The top selling game of all time is an indie game (Minecraft), the top selling game of 2022 is an indie game (Elden Ring), and the top selling game of 2017 was also an indie game (PUBG). It's likely a stretch to say that The Witcher 3 is an indie game, but The Witcher 2 is an indie game and that also sold very well. Looking over the list of top selling games of all time, many of them are indie games.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  +1 I consider video games contemporary art, particularly when they come from small (or single-dev) studios, you can really see there's a conscious effort to extrude some sentiment or story through this medium, and the results is usually amazing! A couple personal favorites to add to your list: - Cuphead (ok, this one had a big budget from the start but I wouldn't consider it AAA) - Crypt of the NecroDancer - Factorio - Fez - Getting Over It - Journey - Monument Valley - Stardew Valley - SUPERHOT - Sword & Sorcery - VVVVVV
  - kranke155 4y ago
    Vídeo games are not just contemporary art - they are THE dominant contemporary artwork of our age. Yes some people choose to ignore it but having studied the arts - painting, writing, even filmmaking at this stage are more and more subservient to videogames. Virtually everything that’s new and exciting in art in the last 20 years have been videogames. If you’re brilliant and you want to make art these days you generally go for videogames I’d say. As a Filmmaker myself it’s interesting that reading the history of film it similarly wasn’t recognised as the dominant artform of its age / in fact quite the opposite it was considered commercial product only. It was only with a Frederico Fellini film being banned for instance that freedom of expression was allowed in film. That was because in breaking with precedent courts decided that film was art! It took Fellini to make them do that. Or so goes the history I’ve heard.
    - phaedrix 4y ago
      Kentucky Route Zero
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    Factorio finally got its hooks into me lately - the first two times I played it I bounced off it. Now I'm hopelessly addicted, scribbling train tracks in my notebook... What a game.
  - trafficante 4y ago
    Just want to add Outer Wilds to the list of “video games as art”. Coincidentally, it has a fantastic VR mod called NomaiVR. Just do yourself a favor and avoid all spoilers before playing it. Definitely in my top 5 games of the decade and one that I wish I could erase my memory to play again.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  There are many great ones on this list, but I just have to chime in and express my undying love for FTL. I have this special place in my heart for games that set out to deliver a specific experience and succeed spectacularly, and FTL is one my favorite examples. You really feel like the spaceship captain, or maybe like a ship AI, making these quick decisions about how to distribute power among your ship's systems, and swapping out equipment for different situations. There are just all these little maneuvers you learn that fit the theme so perfectly - like when you vent oxygen from a part of the ship to put out a fire, or when you vent oxygen while manipulating bulkheads to suffocate enemy boarders. When you pull some power out of the shields to get a quick evasion boost by powering the engine when a missile is fired. Or mind control the enemy pilot to reduce their evasion before you fire your lasers. It just does such a great job of delivering that spaceship experience. Some other games that I hold dear among my "delivers their intended experience" category include Subnautica (experience of being dumped into an alien water world, gradually gaining comfort in the environment, discovering a mystery), DOOM 2016 (experience being an insane unstoppable demon slayer), and Batman: Arkham City (experience being the goddamn Batman). I realize that _all_ games are delivering some experience, but I think these are special standouts in a special sense. They go for some specific thing and use the gameplay to really put you in that scenario. There are many fun and good games that don't do this in the same sense and are more focused on mechanics or story than "experience".
  - zem 4y ago
    i don't game much at all, but i recently picked up stellaris, and it definitely nails the experience (in its case, of being a civilisation developing in a sprawling, chaotic galactic neighbourhood)
cratermoon 4y ago
You've Been Played https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/books/review/youve-been-played-adrian-hon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/books/review/youve-been-p...

robswc 4y ago

I can't blame him. I really love VR. It's still in that period (maybe it never leaves?) where as amazing as it is, its just too much of a hassle to "set up" or "tear down." Maybe I'm just lazy tho, lol

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

yazzku 4y ago

The Carmack talk: https://www.facebook.com/RealityLabs/videos/792254305349862/ https://www.facebook.com/RealityLabs/videos/792254305349862/ Looks silly as fuck. Why would anyone want to watch a half-body ghost avatar shaking like they're high on coke in a cartoonish 3D setting when you can just video stream the real guy? God, that MZ avatar looks cringe af.

origin_path 4y ago
What's crazy is the low frame rate on that video. Isn't VR all about super high FPS?
- yazzku 4y ago
  Yeah. Coke is about super high too.

trafficante 4y ago

As an average VR enjoyer, I’m absolutely baffled by the current state of VR gaming. 2018-2020: barely limping along compared to the early hype, but still getting 2-3 “groundbreaking” titles per year that mostly live up to expectations Spring 2020: Half Life Alyx is released to a flurry of (mostly deserved) 10/10s across the board October 2020: FB releases the Quest 2 and proceeds to beat the combined lifetime sales of the rest of the VR industry in under 18 months. Essentially moving the same number of units as the PS5 during that period (to be fair, Sony had shortage issues) Winter 2020-Present: imagine a tumbleweed lazily rolling through a deserted casino town Most of 2021 was a cope period where enthusiasts believed the drought was due to game publishers pivoting to the Quest’s mobile chipset. But at this point, especially after the Quest Pro reveal and the second Connect with no updates on the two announced AAA titles (Assassin’s Creed and GTA:SA), sentiment seems to be shifting towards a desperate hope that PSVR2 will save the VR gaming industry. What happened? 2020 brought the first AAA 10/10 VR exclusive title AND new hardware that absolutely demolished the sales of everything else released to date. And yet the market is SIGNIFICANTLY more dead than it was in 2019. I can’t explain it. It’s not even a Nintendo Wii situation where it became clear the massive install base wasn’t interested in third party titles: there hasn’t even been a single big third party title released! RE4 VR and Bonelab come the closest and, by all accounts, they both sold extremely well.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
Same thing that happens during every 3d/vr hype cycle. A new generation of people realised it's not that great, uncomfortable, hard to share in person, and expensive. The novelty wore off and the machines got shelved.
- trafficante 4y ago
  Right, this does seem to be a cyclical thing. My point is that it would be extremely weird for every developer to simultaneously exit the VR market immediately AFTER Alyx gets multiple GotY nods and new hardware sells multiple millions of units. And yet, apparently, this is what happened. On some level I suspect FB buying up a dozen of the biggest VR game studios and letting them languish is a big part of the problem.