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That’s not true. Unions negotiate minimums, using collective power to balance the employer’s power over employees. Individual employees are free to negotiate i
by dontlaugh 4y ago
That’s not true. Unions negotiate minimums, using collective power to balance the employer’s power over employees.
Individual employees are free to negotiate individually beyond that. Many do just that, but of course it’s less likely to succeed since individuals don’t have the ability to threaten industrial action.
- Alupis 4y agoGiven that the union will insist on gaining something during collective bargaining negotiations - completely regardless of whatever personal concessions an employer has made during the fiscal year - an employer has zero incentive to just give away anything for free to a unioned employee. That's the deal you made when you joined a union. If you did not understand that deal, then I'm not sure what to say. Being in a union isn't some automatic path to employment nirvana or something... In fact, there could even be a doorway to a lawsuit against the employer for treating a specific employee differently than all the other unionized employees. Unions make things... difficult, despite whatever nostalgic views some may carry towards them.
- dontlaugh 4y agoUnions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. Employers are already not giving anything for free to employees. They do it when forced, either by market forces or the threat of organised workers.
- ejb999 4y agoI find my employer quite generous when times are good, even when they don't need to be, less so when things are tight. Maybe you should work for better companies?
- Alupis 4y ago> Unions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. This is not how unions operate in reality. But regardless, you either get something because your employer thinks it will make your happier, or you get something because your union insists on it. Why would you get special treatment just because you're in a union? Your union has to negotiate and accept things on your behalf... not you. You lost that right when you joined the union.
- spoonjim 4y agoLOL. This is not how "democracies" work. They are co-opted by the same mechanics of power just like any other governance structure.
- Alupis 4y agoThe bureaucracy exists to serve the bureaucracy (a play on the infamous Oscar Wilde quote). It's inescapable and unavoidable for any sufficiently long-lived bureaucracy. By the time you have full-time, professional union employees running things, the disconnect between what actual workers need/want grows uncontrollably.
- whycombinetor 4y agoI've never heard of an individual union member negotiating a higher individual wage or benefits than what's negotiated by the union. My cursory google search results say the same. Do you have examples of this?
- guerrilla 4y agoIt's extremely common, but I don't really know how to get you evidence of that over the Internet.
- Alupis 4y agoI really doubt this anecdote. The entire point of being in a union is for collective bargaining power. What incentive would an employer have to bargain with individuals directly, only to then get raked over the coals by the union for everyone else too? Treating you special is a liability for the employer when dealing with unions. When you joined a union you stopped being an individual and you became part of the collective union. That's what you signed up for... and these are the consequences of that decision.
- vorpalhex 4y agoA citation?
- bwestergard 4y agoI'll give you a widespread example: actors in film who are members of SAG-AFTRA.
- missedthecue 4y agoIs there any industrial union in the US that works the way that the screen actors guild does?
- itsdrewmiller 4y agoProbably not but neither the article nor comment are about industrial unions? Many of the tech sector unions lack the alleged rigidity of industrial CBAs.
- ejb999 4y ago>>That’s not true. Unions negotiate minimums, using collective power to balance the employer’s power over employees. It is absolutely true in every union contract I have negotiated.
- dontlaugh 4y agoIt's possible this varies with country. I presume many on HN assume the US, I know less about the labour practices there.
- vorpalhex 4y ago> Individual employees are free to negotiate individually beyond that. That is typically false. You are bound by the collective bargaining agreement.
- dontlaugh 4y agoThe employer is bound by the bargained minimum. They’re free to offer more, to one or many or all employees.
- bwestergard 4y agoYou are both slightly off. It's entirely up to the parties bargaining how much discretion the employer has to adjust terms during the life of a collective bargaining agreement. For pay specifically, it's not uncommon for the union to propose wage floors and allow some individualized bargaining. It's also not uncommon to specify a full wage schedule for the sake of transparency. The workers get to decide what makes sense for them. Sometimes they decide on different systems for different career tracks.
- dontlaugh 4y agoSure, but I’ve yet to see anything but a floor in bargaining agreements.
- itsdrewmiller 4y agoYou should take a look at teacher pay schedules - they are generally very prescriptive beyond just a floor in my experience.