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So how were the damage calculated? I get that this guy is a nutjob but how can saying something is a hoax get you a 1B fine?
by belval 4y ago
So how were the damage calculated? I get that this guy is a nutjob but how can saying something is a hoax get you a 1B fine?
- dvngnt_ 4y agoprobably because his fans was harassing them even after they moved
- serioussecurity 4y agoPunitive damages were a large fraction of the award.
- tptacek 4y agoAre you sure about that? The jury recommended punitive damages, but as I understand it, in Connecticut the judge decides the punitive damage amounts in a later trial phase. I think today's number includes no punitive damages.
- cjohnson318 4y agoAnd oh boy has he not been cooperative with the judge so far.
- gnopgnip 4y agoThe $965m is entirely economic damages. Punitive damages will be added later
- Cyberdog 4y agoIf that's true, I'd love to see how exactly they calculated that.
- shagie 4y agoThe breakdown of the damages - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/us/politics/alex-jones-damages.html?unlocked_article_code=aWQWThgc7xsEoP9Gnnwx-lyofZKYF9UOWfzDJrIbXu1LB5JUR7sDGKaysm2kMhBVsqbBnTzJGAcgqpg0XNudely7gnnXniEPe4NwhUiDld5sTbEAqyH5Y3WwJowS767Acm7fG6-jdVzhqE3qDi-kU3Hh4yEP9Jf6PHztYGDnS4Jc2KxWDd3OdHPAV-XmKooqZ1zbqh0svua2LaHTpUgDDM3hxK4iBcGoXdzMEy19IZY9y3VrlUq6VlS7WokmkB0J1AZu0zwJtonhsIdDUTkrmFnYXHlX_XI5QG11Jcr1oo5GZkMEmBXCuLpj49mzipyVeJOOqCrPkmyCvYVxlviTGw&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/us/politics/alex-jones-da...
- Cyberdog 4y ago> Defamation/slander damages, past and future: $60 million That's not much of a breakdown, and if anything it seems to go against the idea that these dollar amounts aren't punitive. Are we supposed to assume that that particular plaintiff would have been $60 million richer if Jones hadn't had said what he said? Ridiculous. The emotional distress damages are more subjective, of course, but I still don't see the amounts as any less punitive at this point.
- shagie 4y agoPunitive damages are a different (forthcoming) hearing. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/10/12/us/alex-jones-verdict-sandy-hook?unlocked_article_code=GA-tXTqJX_R6JVKV03tL71UG_xTUdh_NgWSYCm3eE9KSo6XiNu-Veu5YW-W6ewe-KVSzz1LGj5JtFrSVbxQQwV2bDaTKdGgLk1koRHnfYlsUAEiKob6qNOUC_fT2jZBvrXcqF4qtqPt_6wRHGhe5B0WFFNWYz_ezMUJrPN0MDJhA4zGPWTdtkOIHi72ojruBg5O8WgUipm2YfoopOSjTWs1wyHnQPCNf9x9SUL95tYfjewStz7M_xJOY1wxaW7RmUeqiEv7R44k6mQyPWSdgCV8w3kEypnyDQ5AhAC7TUOK-kja_6rs0Kbvr5k-jEjuwe30WVnw1HjFwio93CBSNchmBe1JOCBeTi9IN&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/10/12/us/alex-jones-verdic... > This case presented the greatest financial risk to Mr. Jones, because he was found liable of violating Connecticut’s Unfair Trade Practices Act, by using lies about the shooting to sell products on Infowars. There is no cap on punitive damages under that law. > ... > The next step will be for the judge to consider punitive damages, which would be in addition to Wednesday’s verdict. The article How the jury divided $965 million in damages among the plaintiffs in the case. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/us/politics/alex-jones-damages.html?unlocked_article_code=aWQWThgc7xsEoP9Gnnwx-lyofZKYF9UOWfzDJrIbXu1LB5JUR7sDGKaysm2kMhBVsqbBnTzJGAcgqpg0XNudely7gnnXniEPe4NwhUiDld5sTbEAqyH5Y3WwJowS767Acm7fG6-jdVzhqE3qDi-kU3Hh4yEP9Jf6PHztYGDnS4Jc2KxWDd3OdHPAV-XmKooqZ1zbqh0svua2LaHTpUgDDM3hxK4iBcGoXdzMEy19IZY9y3VrlUq6VlS7WokmkB0J1AZu0zwJtonhsIdDUTkrmFnYXHlX_XI5QG11Jcr1oo5GZkMEmBXCuLpj49mzipyVeJOOqCrPkmyCvYVxlviTGw&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/us/politics/alex-jones-da... This has a breakdown of the compensatory damages and you get things like: > Defamation/slander damages, past and future: $60 million > Emotional distress damages, past and future: $60 million > Total damages: $120 million for one defendant. As there were 14 defendants, this can sum up quite quickly.
- jimjimjim 4y agoOne person can do the harm of a thousand people
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoIt's not just "saying something is a hoax". It's deliberately lying, for years, for his own profit, in a way that caused significant amounts of damage to the people he was lying about. Should that be free from consequences? No. No, it should not be. And, since there was profit from the lying, shouldn't the damages be greater than the profit from the lies? Yes. Yes, it should be.
- carabiner 4y agoKind of an aside, but this theatric style of writing is irritating to read on HN. It also confuses the point here: Jones's payment isn't about what "should" be done based on personal morals, but what is dictated by law, and that is what GP is asking and the question you are ignoring.
- anigbrowl 4y agoLaw is a heuristic, justice still involves moral reasoning.
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoWell, the question of law was already decided. And, legally, I'm pretty sure (but IANAL) that "deliberately lied", "repeatedly", "for profit", and "causing harm" were very relevant in deciding how much the fine should be. (Except, as entiex pointed out, that this was only compensatory, not punitive. Still... the harm went on and on and on for the families, as the lies went on and on and on. Is that allowed to be figured into the amount of compensatory damage? I think so.) My overall point: It wasn't just "saying something is a hoax". It was much more than that, and therefore the damage is much more, so the fine is much more, and justly so.
- wara23arish 4y agoare we holding all news to the same account regarding deliberate lying for profit? i hate double standards
- rootusrootus 4y ago
- probably_wrong 4y agoOne of the lawyers made in the previous case what I consider an interesting argument: Alex Jones claimed under oath that his show reaches (off the top of my head) about a hundred million people. So the lawyer argued that Alex Jones should pay $1 for every person who heard him lie about Sandy Hook. By this measure, if I intentionally harass someone on Twitter I'd have to pay the victim about $50 (on a good day). Since Alex Jones has a much larger following, he'd therefore have to pay more proportional to that. I found that line of reasoning... well, reasonable. But then again, I'm not impartial here.
- robswc 4y agoIf those were the reasonable standards, every media-company would be broke. I'd argue traditional media reaches many more people and the impact of intentional lies is that much greater.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> every media-company would be broke Media is constantly being sued for defamation. The difficult part is showing they had evidence they were lying. That was overwhelming in these cases, which is what makes them unique.
- tptacek 4y agoMorever, any serious media company in the world when faced with a suit like this would have lawyered up and diligently participated in their defense during the trial. Jones did the opposite: he and his counsel clownishly attempted to boycott the trial, despite repeated and escalating warnings from the judge, and ended up losing by default, which is an almost unprecedented outcome. Most companies don't respond to lawsuits by daring the state to demonstrate the rule of law.
- tainfowars0320 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- badwolf 4y agoHe caused his fans to harass families of murdered children for years, several had to move, some multiple times. All the while Alex Jones was raking in millions in cash off it.
- wara23arish 4y agoshouldn’t the harassers be tried ?
- techsupporter 4y agoSome of them have been (for example: https://www.mcall.com/hc-sandy-hook-denier-harrassment-0225-20170224-story.html https://www.mcall.com/hc-sandy-hook-denier-harrassment-0225-...) but the main problem is that it is, as most of us posting here know, difficult to track down the individuals directly performing the harassment. Alex Jones is directly inciting people to go harass the plaintiffs so he bears liability for his actions.
- wara23arish 4y agodid he really say go harass these people or did he just say they’re crisis actors and its hoax? Im genuinely asking because i don’t understand how this works. I was under the impression that saying “Trump is a murderous liar” is fine, if I say “Go kill trump”etc then thats incitement. Does that make sense?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> was under the impression that saying “Trump is a murderous liar” is fine, if I say “Go kill trump”etc then that's incitement If Alex Jones said "go kill these families," he'd likely be facing criminal charges. Instead, he made up specific claims which he kept repeating even after being shown evidence a reasonable person would accept as refutation of said claims. To your analogy: if you said "Trump is a murderous liar who buggered my pet rabbit last Tuesday in New York," then were shown evidence Trump was in London and up to no buggery, and yet you kept saying it, yes, Trump might have a claim against you.
- heavyset_go 4y agoJones led a years-long defamatory harassment campaign against grieving parents for profit. He did not merely say something was a hoax, he organized and profited, for years, from his slander and harassment against many innocent people.
- halfjoking 4y ago[flagged]
- shadowgovt 4y agoIn this particular venue, damages were determined by the jury (which is not the case in all states). Relevant to that process, Jones took the stand in his own defense, to show remorse and indicate why the jury should find for a lower penalty, and... Did the opposite of that. He lost his temper and managed to strongly indicate he had learned nothing and showed no remorse. Juries tend to take a particularly dim view of such behavior (often even dimmer than a judge, which is one of the reasons so many states don't involve the jury in the process of assigning penalty). Interestingly enough, the judge also has the authority to assign penalty here (Jones' behavior on the stand and in court was egregious) and has not done so yet. Her say comes soon.
- entiex 4y agoBut these aren't puntive damages, they're compensatory damages, and plainly excessive ones at that. Alex Jones level of remorse has no bearing on the level of damage he caused, and so should have no bearing on the amount of compensatory damages. To the extent that they did, that's an injustice. These damages are absolutely insane for emotional distress and defamation. The average lifetime earnings of a US citizen are $1.7 million. These damages essentially allege that each plaintiff suffered emotional distress so severe it was over forty times the average person's lifetime earnings. That's plainly absurd.
- shadowgovt 4y ago> Alex Jones level of remorse has no bearing on the level of damage he caused That's an excellent legal argument, is the kind of thing that could probably win before a judge... And has no bearing on what a jury finds. In general, the reasoning of a jury is private to the jury. They can award maximum damages because they think Jones is ugly (all you have to do is get fourteen people to agree that's a fair thing to do to the man; hypothetically, the averaging effect over so many folks is a back-stop. That back-stop backfires if the defendant is particularly loathsome; recall how long it took to seat a jury for Martin Shkreli). This is why damages are, in so many places, not put before a jury.
- 4y ago