5 ms·

People are raising really good points here, but I do find it interesting how negatively this news is being received vs. when Apple said the same thing: https://

by cglong 4y ago

People are raising really good points here, but I do find it interesting how negatively this news is being received vs. when Apple said the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31643917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31643917

Someone1234 4y ago
The second most popular top level comment chain is: > Unless I can back it up and import it into a new device from a competitor, then there is no way I am going to use this unless forced. I do not trust one company anymore. Which is the same sentiment as this thread. The first comment was just talking about the open standard of Apple's implementation and weakness of 2FA loss/recovery. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644190
- throw10920 4y ago
  Yup - GP made the mistake of treating HN as a single person with a coherent opinion. It's not, and it's extremely tiring and intellectually uninteresting to repeatedly see people doing that.
  - pastage 4y ago
    No. While I have tried to counter these group think posts you talk about, I only find them interesting because I think it is human nature to do it. I know I do it all the time.
  - woojoo666 4y ago
    Your GP did not treat HN as a single person, they are simply pointing out population trends. And these trends are important when analyzing the dynamics of a democratic (upvote-based) content platform
    - webmobdev 4y ago
      HN is not really a pure "democratic (upvote-based)" system as moderators can (and do) "interfere" in the process - they can remove comments or bring a low ranking comment to the top of the discussion if they feel that a discussion on that might be more interesting for the HN crowd.
  - glenstein 4y ago
    I agree, but with the following caveat. Sometimes hot takes inspire reflexive reactions from the crowd, reactions that aren't coming from a place of deeply well thought out reasons. So if you get a mob of people all reacting the same way to something, who, upon examination, have arrived at their conclusion for a smattering of contradictory and inconsistent reasons, it can be a helpful point of information for diagnosing the irrational mob response. Granted it's not always the case, people get to similar beliefs through different reasons. But these are two phenomena that exist side by side and there are times when it's necessary and helpful to be able to diagnose the first.
- notyourday 4y ago
  > I do not trust one company anymore. Especially when that company is Google.
  - chlorion 4y ago
    Yeah Google is more evil than all of those other totally non-evil companies that act in your best interests at all times. It's not like other companies have the same incentive to profit from you! You believing $company is not as bad as Google definitely has nothing to do with marketing!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Ferret7446 4y ago
  I find that sentiment ironic because I won't use it unless it can't be backed up (the main selling point of 2FA and hardware keys). If it can be backed up, then a casual bystander/process can also "back up", filch all of your credentials in a few moments with you being none the wiser. The protocol is open, so I can use one proprietary key from company A, one from company B, and a few open source keys. Keep one for regular use and the rest as backups.
quadrifoliate 4y ago
It's not particularly surprising. Apple has a much better reputation at customer service than Google does – they have actual stores you can walk into. Now I'm not sure whether they can help you unlock your Apple ID if you prove to them that you're the owner of the account, but I can at least visualize Apple having the scale to do that. Google on the other hand has a horrendous reputation for locking out people out of their accounts totally and permanently. Of course everyone has concerns about handing all your account login responsibilities to a company with such terrible customer service.
- TheNewsIsHere 4y ago
  At the risk of being pedantic, no. Apple Stores aren’t able or empowered to provide Apple ID support beyond what the public website based recovery workflows provide. I am sure someone will note that someone at an Apple Store has helped them reset an Apple ID password. What I mean is that Apple Store employees have neither procedure nor access to override Apple’s account system. You have to call support for assistance beyond what the website can do. I am sure Apple Store employees have been helpful and I’m sure policies have changed over time. As an Apple user I find this as frustrating as it is wise. Mostly for future-me who may one day not be as savvy and manage to screw myself. I don’t fully trust iCloud Keychain and Apple to never lose my data in a “I don’t concern myself with backups” manner. So I opt for using Passkeys where I can also add my FIDO2 tokens.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Eh. Pedantically; the Apple Store will at least try to help you, even if they’re not empowered to fix it they will guide you through the process until there is a resolution. It’s not as “you’re on your own” as some products I’ve owned.
    - r00fus 4y ago
      This is key. That the Apple Store can't directly help you doesn't mean they won't direct you to the proper person (and possibly stay with you if possible & desired)
pGuitar 4y ago
Apple isn't any better then Google... they are just better at hiding it.

by cglong 4y ago

Someone1234 4y ago

The second most popular top level comment chain is: > Unless I can back it up and import it into a new device from a competitor, then there is no way I am going to use this unless forced. I do not trust one company anymore. Which is the same sentiment as this thread. The first comment was just talking about the open standard of Apple's implementation and weakness of 2FA loss/recovery. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644190

throw10920 4y ago
Yup - GP made the mistake of treating HN as a single person with a coherent opinion. It's not, and it's extremely tiring and intellectually uninteresting to repeatedly see people doing that.
- pastage 4y ago
  No. While I have tried to counter these group think posts you talk about, I only find them interesting because I think it is human nature to do it. I know I do it all the time.
- woojoo666 4y ago
  Your GP did not treat HN as a single person, they are simply pointing out population trends. And these trends are important when analyzing the dynamics of a democratic (upvote-based) content platform
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    HN is not really a pure "democratic (upvote-based)" system as moderators can (and do) "interfere" in the process - they can remove comments or bring a low ranking comment to the top of the discussion if they feel that a discussion on that might be more interesting for the HN crowd.
- glenstein 4y ago
  I agree, but with the following caveat. Sometimes hot takes inspire reflexive reactions from the crowd, reactions that aren't coming from a place of deeply well thought out reasons. So if you get a mob of people all reacting the same way to something, who, upon examination, have arrived at their conclusion for a smattering of contradictory and inconsistent reasons, it can be a helpful point of information for diagnosing the irrational mob response. Granted it's not always the case, people get to similar beliefs through different reasons. But these are two phenomena that exist side by side and there are times when it's necessary and helpful to be able to diagnose the first.
notyourday 4y ago
> I do not trust one company anymore. Especially when that company is Google.
- chlorion 4y ago
  Yeah Google is more evil than all of those other totally non-evil companies that act in your best interests at all times. It's not like other companies have the same incentive to profit from you! You believing $company is not as bad as Google definitely has nothing to do with marketing!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Ferret7446 4y ago
I find that sentiment ironic because I won't use it unless it can't be backed up (the main selling point of 2FA and hardware keys). If it can be backed up, then a casual bystander/process can also "back up", filch all of your credentials in a few moments with you being none the wiser. The protocol is open, so I can use one proprietary key from company A, one from company B, and a few open source keys. Keep one for regular use and the rest as backups.

quadrifoliate 4y ago

It's not particularly surprising. Apple has a much better reputation at customer service than Google does – they have actual stores you can walk into. Now I'm not sure whether they can help you unlock your Apple ID if you prove to them that you're the owner of the account, but I can at least visualize Apple having the scale to do that. Google on the other hand has a horrendous reputation for locking out people out of their accounts totally and permanently. Of course everyone has concerns about handing all your account login responsibilities to a company with such terrible customer service.

TheNewsIsHere 4y ago
At the risk of being pedantic, no. Apple Stores aren’t able or empowered to provide Apple ID support beyond what the public website based recovery workflows provide. I am sure someone will note that someone at an Apple Store has helped them reset an Apple ID password. What I mean is that Apple Store employees have neither procedure nor access to override Apple’s account system. You have to call support for assistance beyond what the website can do. I am sure Apple Store employees have been helpful and I’m sure policies have changed over time. As an Apple user I find this as frustrating as it is wise. Mostly for future-me who may one day not be as savvy and manage to screw myself. I don’t fully trust iCloud Keychain and Apple to never lose my data in a “I don’t concern myself with backups” manner. So I opt for using Passkeys where I can also add my FIDO2 tokens.
- dijit 4y ago
  Eh. Pedantically; the Apple Store will at least try to help you, even if they’re not empowered to fix it they will guide you through the process until there is a resolution. It’s not as “you’re on your own” as some products I’ve owned.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    This is key. That the Apple Store can't directly help you doesn't mean they won't direct you to the proper person (and possibly stay with you if possible & desired)

pGuitar 4y ago

Apple isn't any better then Google... they are just better at hiding it.