5 ms·

This takes me back to conversations in the middle school cafeteria. When was the last time you had to bribe a US official to get basic tasks done like register

This takes me back to conversations in the middle school cafeteria. When was the last time you had to bribe a US official to get basic tasks done like register your car? In places that actually have criminal governments this is the norm. Do some research about what it's like in places where there is truly no mechanism for people to remove those in power. Look at russia and the mechanisms by which decisions are made and what means there are for the public to change them, and contrast that with all the NIMBYism which often dominates the process in the US. A democratic government is the means by which the population prevents the monopoly on legal violence from falling permanently into the hands of any individual. It isn't perfect but it's the best option we have. Pretending we would be equally well off with a despot is nonsense.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Even in places that have reasonably good and democratic government, officials take bribes. This happens in Italy, Greece, Spain, India, and many more (almost all of South and Central America). The US and UK are pretty unique in that they aggressively prevent low-level corruption.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Stopping low-level corruption while allowing high-level corruption to pass through (i.e. with high-dollar lobbying) is IMO less democratic than at least letting those with less money buy off at least their small part of government to let them do what the high-dollar people tried to outlaw.
- bigbacaloa 4y ago
  There is no routine bribe paying in Spain. What occurs is similar to what occurs in the US - bribes to get government contracts. Day to day bribes are unheard of and Spain is no more corrupt than the US in that sense (in fact, probably less so - I know of people having to pay small "fees" at a county sheriff's office to get some routine document processed).
  - jstarfish 4y ago
    Fees paid for document processing are annoying and regressive but are not bribes. They are there to stop you from wasting department resources with requests for 500,000,000 copies of an incident report whose content you disagree with.
    - bigbacaloa 4y ago
      I said "fee" not fee ... This was a cut and dried under the table twenty dollars to get someonw to do something ...
- williamcotton 4y ago
  Motte: All governments are like criminal organizations. Bailey: Even some Western governments have issues with low-level corruption.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Umm... those are two completely different statements, not a Motte and Bailey fallacy. I am happy to defend my position that governments use force the same way mobs do, but they give you more of a say in how the force can be used and they give you some written protections (that they are happy to infringe when convenient). Also, I never said that we would be better off with a despot or a gang or anything of the sort, as the original reply tried to claim.
scarface74 4y ago
> A democratic government is the means by which the population prevents the monopoly on legal violence from falling permanently into the hands of any individual That would be nice if we had a “democracy”. Because of both gerrymandering and the design of the constitution - 2 senators per state, and the electoral college - we don’t have one. The “majority” doesn’t care as long as law enforcement is used unfairly against “them”. There is a reason that during the protests in the US, protestors started using “White shields”. They knew how fast the population would turn against law enforcement when the local news showed them beating up on white people. https://www.blackenterprise.com/white-protesters-form-human-barrier-to-shield-black-protesters-from-louisville-metro-police/ https://www.blackenterprise.com/white-protesters-form-human-...
- landemva 4y ago
  The Constitution had the House grow with increase in population. Congress stopped that growth so now lobbyists have the access. Two Senators per State worked ok when appointed by State because Senators would get recalled and replaced if they voted against State's interests. Now the people vote on Senators and the lobbyists have the access and control.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So you’re saying it was better when the state legislators had control? That’s even less democratic. You realize that the “states interest” back in the 60s was the continuing of Jim Crow laws in the South. How many Trump supporting states would have recalled Senators in the 2020 for not agreeing to give him the Presidency?
    - landemva 4y ago
      Do you think it would be good to follow the Constitution and have the House grow with population?
      - scarface74 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago

Even in places that have reasonably good and democratic government, officials take bribes. This happens in Italy, Greece, Spain, India, and many more (almost all of South and Central America). The US and UK are pretty unique in that they aggressively prevent low-level corruption.

notch656a 4y ago
Stopping low-level corruption while allowing high-level corruption to pass through (i.e. with high-dollar lobbying) is IMO less democratic than at least letting those with less money buy off at least their small part of government to let them do what the high-dollar people tried to outlaw.
bigbacaloa 4y ago
There is no routine bribe paying in Spain. What occurs is similar to what occurs in the US - bribes to get government contracts. Day to day bribes are unheard of and Spain is no more corrupt than the US in that sense (in fact, probably less so - I know of people having to pay small "fees" at a county sheriff's office to get some routine document processed).
- jstarfish 4y ago
  Fees paid for document processing are annoying and regressive but are not bribes. They are there to stop you from wasting department resources with requests for 500,000,000 copies of an incident report whose content you disagree with.
  - bigbacaloa 4y ago
    I said "fee" not fee ... This was a cut and dried under the table twenty dollars to get someonw to do something ...
williamcotton 4y ago
Motte: All governments are like criminal organizations. Bailey: Even some Western governments have issues with low-level corruption.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Umm... those are two completely different statements, not a Motte and Bailey fallacy. I am happy to defend my position that governments use force the same way mobs do, but they give you more of a say in how the force can be used and they give you some written protections (that they are happy to infringe when convenient). Also, I never said that we would be better off with a despot or a gang or anything of the sort, as the original reply tried to claim.

scarface74 4y ago

> A democratic government is the means by which the population prevents the monopoly on legal violence from falling permanently into the hands of any individual That would be nice if we had a “democracy”. Because of both gerrymandering and the design of the constitution - 2 senators per state, and the electoral college - we don’t have one. The “majority” doesn’t care as long as law enforcement is used unfairly against “them”. There is a reason that during the protests in the US, protestors started using “White shields”. They knew how fast the population would turn against law enforcement when the local news showed them beating up on white people. https://www.blackenterprise.com/white-protesters-form-human-barrier-to-shield-black-protesters-from-louisville-metro-police/ https://www.blackenterprise.com/white-protesters-form-human-...

landemva 4y ago
The Constitution had the House grow with increase in population. Congress stopped that growth so now lobbyists have the access. Two Senators per State worked ok when appointed by State because Senators would get recalled and replaced if they voted against State's interests. Now the people vote on Senators and the lobbyists have the access and control.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So you’re saying it was better when the state legislators had control? That’s even less democratic. You realize that the “states interest” back in the 60s was the continuing of Jim Crow laws in the South. How many Trump supporting states would have recalled Senators in the 2020 for not agreeing to give him the Presidency?
  - landemva 4y ago
    Do you think it would be good to follow the Constitution and have the House grow with population?
    - scarface74 4y ago