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> I think flattening excessively pyramidal hierarchies are the only real solution for this problem, but that's not much comfort for those who find themselves de

> I think flattening excessively pyramidal hierarchies are the only real solution for this problem, but that's not much comfort for those who find themselves derailed due to this dynamic. I don't see a problem. The SVP was correct to do what they did. IMO they should have fired this guy, not just threatened them. This was a junior engineer posting about internal company work on social media. The junior engineer knew they were supposed to reach out to the public relations team (per the article); but the engineer kept posting anyway. The public relations point team was asking the guy to stop and he was refusing until directly threatened with termination. How would you handle this? Imagine if someone in marketing started committing code and force pushing code to production? That's effectively what this junior engineer was doing with marketing.

etothepii 4y ago
Where did you get that from the article? Do you have off thread knowledge of the situation?
- citilife 4y ago
  Author was an engineer: > I was super excited I was actually getting an opportunity to pursue my engineering dreams. The word "engineer" was even in my job title! He joined twitter and started sending his content to the PR team for approval: > In fact, I was so prolific on social media that I got the attention of several industry analysts who asked how my company used social media for brand promotion and marketing. Of course, since I was in engineering, I sent these inquiries over to our PR department. ... I often tweeted about what we were doing, what the company was releasing, and what conferences I would attend. I understood the confidentiality policies at the company and never shared any confidential information. The company even gave me formal PR training so I would know what I could and couldn't say. ... After fielding several of my PR referrals, I eventually got the attention of a senior vice president at the company, let's call him Rick Dickerson. He then asked me if I could teach him how to use Twitter. The author was clearly stepping out of their role and impacting public relations. The SVP asked them to explain what they were doing and be introduced to those the engineer was working with (in social media). Then they flagged future content and told them to stop. The SVP was ensuring they had the information they needed to protect the company and then limit any future off-message content being produced. The SVP wanted this engineer out of the social media space and needed him stopped. > At that moment, it became clear that the SVP didn't just want to get me away from anything social media related in the company; he wanted me out of the company entirely. He was trying to get me fired. I'm not saying I would have done it this way, but this is what happened via the article.
  - etothepii 4y ago
    That's fascinating, if completely missed that narrative. Obviously I assumed the OP was biased but I had not seen your narrative as an option from the facts, though I do now.
  - peteradio 4y ago
    He was effectively self-grooming for the position, isn't that what you're supposed to do? He was getting internal training for the role and claims to follow the policies he was taught. You are making claims without evidence.
    - citilife 4y ago
      > He was getting internal training for the role and claims to follow the policies he was taught. His posts were being flagged by the PR team. I suspect it's because he was discussing products without going through the PR team (because they would have told him to stop). All my arguments are from the article itself. > He was effectively self-grooming for the position, isn't that what you're supposed to do? If someone from marketing came down and started force pushing code to production, would that be self-grooming? No, you'd expect a PR and some review process, which wasn't occurring here.
      - wesley83 4y ago
        The PR team never flagged anything. The SVP backchanneled unfounded complaints to my director in order to get me in trouble. The PR team loved me.
        citilife 4y ago
        > ... I showed Rick the platform's essential functions. Eventually, he created the company's Social Media Council, and I was appointed as one of the founding members. It seems the SVP was in company representative in charge of PR / social media? If so, he was the party responsible for the team and thus "the team"? > The SVP backchanneled unfounded complaints to my director in order to get me in trouble. Seems like the SVP was going through the command chain to direct his complaints / concerns to you. That's the typical way corporate structures work.
peteradio 4y ago
What internal work was he posting?
tsuujin 4y ago
The article goes out of its way to tell us that this guy received extensive training in what he was and was not allowed to say on social media from the PR team, and was doing well enough that he was a founding member of that company’s social media team. I’m not sure where you’re drawing your conclusion from.
- citilife 4y ago
  I replied in this thread to a different comment, but suffice to say, we're only seeing this engineers view on the topic. From a company perspective, how do you handle someone who's gained a social media following and is posting about the company and acting as a company spokesman without being approved to do so. You would collect all the information you can, then tell the guy to knock it off or be fired. That appears to be what happened.
  - throwawaymaths 4y ago
    Well no you wouldn't say "company financials" to escalate it, you would just be generic and say "proprietary information". There was enough suspicious stuff going on (being uninvited from internal group chats) that you can't chalk it up to one-off accidental miscommunications. Besides, unless I misunderstood, it doesn't seem like the "knock it off" was directly communicated to the employee by the svp at any point, which a good faith manager would probably do, unless they have a severe nonconfrontatiomality issue (some managers do)
    - wesley83 4y ago
      For the record. I had zero infractions on social. None. All allegations were made up and unfounded.
      - throwawaymaths 4y ago
        I believe you, I'm trying to counter the narrative that there is some way you could have misinterpreted otherwise "normal" administrative disciplinary communication
noelwelsh 4y ago
This is ridiculous. If you have a problem with what someone is doing you say "I have a problem with what you're doing, for the following reasons." You don't drop oblique threats or do the other nonsense mentioned in the article. Obviously we don't know the other side of the story but you are making a massive leap from what is presented and ignoring the completely reasonable alternatives to what the SVP is reported to have done.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Think of the game theory and organizational evolution in such a flat hierarchy, especially when the flat section is a middle management level. This flat hierarchy works at the low level. It already does almost everywhere on the border of "production workers" and "low management". But in the middle management, the incentive is promotion and control. You start out with a flattened hierarchy, and say 20 managers vying for promotion, well, you probably won't get promoted. Then why try hard? Uhoh, now most of your managers will either: 1) leave 2) fight over / jockey over being the "senior level" of the 20 underlings 3) stop trying 4) embezzle 5) gradually conspire to "unflatten" and add more levels, gain control (solid line or dotted line) to the territory of your peers

etothepii 4y ago

Where did you get that from the article? Do you have off thread knowledge of the situation?

citilife 4y ago
Author was an engineer: > I was super excited I was actually getting an opportunity to pursue my engineering dreams. The word "engineer" was even in my job title! He joined twitter and started sending his content to the PR team for approval: > In fact, I was so prolific on social media that I got the attention of several industry analysts who asked how my company used social media for brand promotion and marketing. Of course, since I was in engineering, I sent these inquiries over to our PR department. ... I often tweeted about what we were doing, what the company was releasing, and what conferences I would attend. I understood the confidentiality policies at the company and never shared any confidential information. The company even gave me formal PR training so I would know what I could and couldn't say. ... After fielding several of my PR referrals, I eventually got the attention of a senior vice president at the company, let's call him Rick Dickerson. He then asked me if I could teach him how to use Twitter. The author was clearly stepping out of their role and impacting public relations. The SVP asked them to explain what they were doing and be introduced to those the engineer was working with (in social media). Then they flagged future content and told them to stop. The SVP was ensuring they had the information they needed to protect the company and then limit any future off-message content being produced. The SVP wanted this engineer out of the social media space and needed him stopped. > At that moment, it became clear that the SVP didn't just want to get me away from anything social media related in the company; he wanted me out of the company entirely. He was trying to get me fired. I'm not saying I would have done it this way, but this is what happened via the article.
- etothepii 4y ago
  That's fascinating, if completely missed that narrative. Obviously I assumed the OP was biased but I had not seen your narrative as an option from the facts, though I do now.
- peteradio 4y ago
  He was effectively self-grooming for the position, isn't that what you're supposed to do? He was getting internal training for the role and claims to follow the policies he was taught. You are making claims without evidence.
  - citilife 4y ago
    > He was getting internal training for the role and claims to follow the policies he was taught. His posts were being flagged by the PR team. I suspect it's because he was discussing products without going through the PR team (because they would have told him to stop). All my arguments are from the article itself. > He was effectively self-grooming for the position, isn't that what you're supposed to do? If someone from marketing came down and started force pushing code to production, would that be self-grooming? No, you'd expect a PR and some review process, which wasn't occurring here.
    - wesley83 4y ago
      The PR team never flagged anything. The SVP backchanneled unfounded complaints to my director in order to get me in trouble. The PR team loved me.
      - citilife 4y ago
        > ... I showed Rick the platform's essential functions. Eventually, he created the company's Social Media Council, and I was appointed as one of the founding members. It seems the SVP was in company representative in charge of PR / social media? If so, he was the party responsible for the team and thus "the team"? > The SVP backchanneled unfounded complaints to my director in order to get me in trouble. Seems like the SVP was going through the command chain to direct his complaints / concerns to you. That's the typical way corporate structures work.

peteradio 4y ago

What internal work was he posting?

tsuujin 4y ago

The article goes out of its way to tell us that this guy received extensive training in what he was and was not allowed to say on social media from the PR team, and was doing well enough that he was a founding member of that company’s social media team. I’m not sure where you’re drawing your conclusion from.

citilife 4y ago
I replied in this thread to a different comment, but suffice to say, we're only seeing this engineers view on the topic. From a company perspective, how do you handle someone who's gained a social media following and is posting about the company and acting as a company spokesman without being approved to do so. You would collect all the information you can, then tell the guy to knock it off or be fired. That appears to be what happened.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Well no you wouldn't say "company financials" to escalate it, you would just be generic and say "proprietary information". There was enough suspicious stuff going on (being uninvited from internal group chats) that you can't chalk it up to one-off accidental miscommunications. Besides, unless I misunderstood, it doesn't seem like the "knock it off" was directly communicated to the employee by the svp at any point, which a good faith manager would probably do, unless they have a severe nonconfrontatiomality issue (some managers do)
  - wesley83 4y ago
    For the record. I had zero infractions on social. None. All allegations were made up and unfounded.
    - throwawaymaths 4y ago
      I believe you, I'm trying to counter the narrative that there is some way you could have misinterpreted otherwise "normal" administrative disciplinary communication

noelwelsh 4y ago

This is ridiculous. If you have a problem with what someone is doing you say "I have a problem with what you're doing, for the following reasons." You don't drop oblique threats or do the other nonsense mentioned in the article. Obviously we don't know the other side of the story but you are making a massive leap from what is presented and ignoring the completely reasonable alternatives to what the SVP is reported to have done.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

Think of the game theory and organizational evolution in such a flat hierarchy, especially when the flat section is a middle management level. This flat hierarchy works at the low level. It already does almost everywhere on the border of "production workers" and "low management". But in the middle management, the incentive is promotion and control. You start out with a flattened hierarchy, and say 20 managers vying for promotion, well, you probably won't get promoted. Then why try hard? Uhoh, now most of your managers will either: 1) leave 2) fight over / jockey over being the "senior level" of the 20 underlings 3) stop trying 4) embezzle 5) gradually conspire to "unflatten" and add more levels, gain control (solid line or dotted line) to the territory of your peers