12 ms·

This seems to be mostly a US American thing, mainly because of the same reasons BBM was a thing: lots of chats over SMS used to be a thing, and then chats over

This seems to be mostly a US American thing, mainly because of the same reasons BBM was a thing: lots of chats over SMS used to be a thing, and then chats over iMessage, which like BBM, you can only join if you have a device from a specific vendor. That means that you can only be in a special social circle if you buy the same stuff. That won't change because of some colours, because it's not the colours causing the tribalism, it can exist perfectly fine without it. In Western Europe, South America and Asia it's mostly just some specific app (WhatsApp for example, or Signal, or WeChat or LINE) and as a fallback SMS. And if SMS turns from one colour bubble to another colour it doesn't really do anything for users on either end. This deep integration with colours and status symbols does remain in specific areas like middle school where it is still seen as important to try to project wealth.

nottorp 4y ago
Yeah, no one uses plain sms messages across the pond any more. And sms group chats? I only know about sms group chats from US posters. You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that.
- ericmay 4y ago
  > You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that. Yea but that's a problem too.
  - scatters 4y ago
    WhatsApp doesn't have anywhere near the same lockin as Apple. You can run multiple messaging apps even on a low end android phone.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Lock-in through the network effect is lock in. The fact that it’s the de facto standard outside the US is quite a network effect. SMS by contrast is an open standard.
      - ericmay 4y ago
        > Lock-in through the network effect is lock in. Exactly. If your complaint is about being locked in but the platform you use is the one everyone has to use because of network effect or otherwise you yourself are locked in with that platform.
      - scatters 4y ago
        The network effect only results in lock-in if there's an obstacle to using multiple networks at the same time. Obviously no-one is going to carry around two phones, so that's how Apple achieves lock-in. By contrast, keeping two or more messaging apps running is trivial. And SMS is irrelevant.
      - kaba0 4y ago
        SMS is just terrible though, and is just not worth using. It is plain text, limited in size and simply has less features.
        kube-system 4y ago
        What anyone means when they say SMS post ~2010 is SMS/MMS
        kaba0 4y ago
        It didn't get better.
        kube-system 4y ago
        That's just like, your opinion, man. SMS/MMS is decentralized, open, and works on every modern mobile phone out of the box. No other text messaging technology does this yet.
        kaba0 4y ago
        Open for Verizon to read/modify, you have no way of knowing the other half’s identity (was their number given to someone else in the meanwhile), no encoding is specified/due to non-ASCII characters taking more SPACE (in 2022) so auto-SMSs still today will just force ascii text, making it often unreadable. Like, it is literally a single digit number of bytes difference. Also, you need like.. a carrier plan to access, wouldn’t really call that open. Any network based messenger can work over my home or even McDonald’s wifi, without any third-parties
    - ericmay 4y ago
      Did you mean WhatsApp doesn't have anywhere near the same lock in as the Messages app? I don't know what you mean by "same lock in as Apple". I also don't know what you would mean by lock in with the Messages app. What's locked in? I can use WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, WeChat, or any number of communication apps on my iPhone effortlessly.
      - scatters 4y ago
        Apple's messages app isn't really an app; it comes preinstalled on the phone, you can't remove it or substitute it with another app, and you can't install it on non-Apple hardware. The lock-in is obvious: if you're part of Apple-oriented chat groups you can't switch to Android without losing access to those groups, degrading the experience for everyone, or convincing each one of those groups to make the switch to a multi-platform alternative. Claiming not to see this is disingenuous.
        ericmay 4y ago
        > Apple's messages app isn't really an app; it comes preinstalled on the phone, you can't remove it or substitute it with another app, and you can't install it on non-Apple hardware. I'm not sure, but I don't think you can actually uninstall the default SMS from Android phones either without having another app installed at a minimum and then I bet similar to Messages if you were to somehow uninstall that app then the default app would appear since it's probably part of the core operating system (similar to other basic functionality like settings or a phone app to receive calls). I don't know what you mean by you cannot substitute Messages with another app. If I didn't want to use Messages I would just disable all settings and remove it from the home screen and use whatever I wanted instead just fine. You are correct that you cannot install Messages on non-Apple hardware. Not all software is open source or available for all platforms. For example I cannot install Playstation software on my Xbox, nor can I buy a Nest Thermostat and install a competitor's software on it (without hacking both of course). There are games that are made that aren't created with support for macOS. Etc. > if you're part of Apple-oriented chat groups you can't switch to Android without losing access to those groups What is an Apple-oriented chat group?
    - checkyoursudo 4y ago
      I can run WhatsApp on my iPhone. I cannot get my kids' school parents-group not to use WhatsApp. It was a pain to get even my best friends in Europe to use anything except WhatsApp.
      - stevedzreams 4y ago
        What did you propose as the alterntive?
      - scatters 4y ago
        Well done that parents' group. Obviously something like Signal would be better, but that'll happen once there's enough social consensus.
        ls15 4y ago
        Meanwhile, I am lighting a candle for every poor soul that has been pressured into installing Meta products.
    - criddell 4y ago
      Is WhatsApp open? Are there alternative clients?
      - scatters 4y ago
        Even better: it's a player in a competitive market. So you can switch your chats one-by-one to Signal, Telegram or whatever floats your boat.
        criddell 4y ago
        What do you mean by switch your chats. You can’t have the chat in more than one client at a time?
        scatters 4y ago
        Yes, that's why it's switching.
        ls15 4y ago
        I am glad that the EU actually has another definition of letting people use what is floating their boat: Force big-tech player to open up protocols, so users can send messages from any messenger to any other messenger. https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/24/dma-political-agreement/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/24/dma-political-agreement/ As a user I cannot see any downsides.
- taylodl 4y ago
  Using Facebook to do messaging? No thanks! Sure, when communicating with international friends I use WhatsApp because that appears to be what the rest of the world uses, but here in the States? No. We don't trust Zuckerberg. And yes, iMessage group chats are very much a thing here in the States and SMS group chats in general. And also yes, there's always that techie friend with an Android and makes your whole conversation go "green." Thing is, only middle schoolers really seem to care. I just know it means the communication isn't secured end-to-end.
  - brokenkebab2 4y ago
    I didn't like FB well before it became fashionable, but I don't understand your logic here: what is that exactly that you can't entrust WhatsApp to send, but you can trust Apple, or your mobile carrier?
    - ar_lan 4y ago
      I'm not really answering your question, but in the States, there is a lot more trust placed in Apple over Facebook. This isn't that surprising - Apple has a much stauncher stance on privacy than alternatives. I wish Signal would be more popular, but it's just not. I can't really ask new people I meet to communicate over Signal because it's a burden to get others to install some new application.
      - nottorp 4y ago
        Im tired of super secure apps that ask for your phone number and even publish it to your contacts. Wake me up when Signal doesnt depend on a phone number any more.
      - Dma54rhs 4y ago
        DMing on Instagram is super popular in USA. Most of the people don't give a shit about privacy to begin with.
    - mmmlinux 4y ago
      Facebook's goal is to extract as much information from you as possible. Apple wants to sell you a new phone.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  How do you message when you don't have wifi/data? I can SMS from more remote places than I can any internet-based service.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    In most of the world you do have either wifi or data coverage. Usually, if you don't have data for signal (as opposed to run out of data in your plan) reasons, then you don't have signal at all, even for SMS, either...
  - bmicraft 4y ago
    I've never been anywhere where I legitimately had signal but no data. When it seems to be connected buy isn't, sms mostly also won't go though. I also think there are less "remote" places in europe in general.
  - joecot 4y ago
    You don't. But in the US I'm rarely in a place where I have no data but SMS still works. And Europe has more effective telecom service.
    - culturestate 4y ago
      > Europe has more effective telecom service Some of Europe has very effective telecom infrastructure, but that's far from universal.
      - dghughes 4y ago
        Cries in Canadian :(
        culturestate 4y ago
        It could be worse. Service is so famously bad in Germany that they invented a word for it - Funklochrepublik, which basically means "radio hole republic."
- reaperducer 4y ago
  You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that. Trusting your private conversations to ~Facebook~ Meta is also a signal.
- nottorp 4y ago
  Id rather not exclude people who dont have an iPhone, either because they cant afford it or believe Samsung marketing.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Even iMessage is barely used. In The Netherlands, WhatsApp is king. And WhatsApp doesn't discriminate.
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
> in specific areas like middle school where it is still seen as important to try to project wealth. Surely it's not middle school when people try to project wealth the most.. kids care more about who has an iPhone than adults but adults project wealth _a lot_ more than kids overall: fancy cars, homes, holidays etc. More expensive things are also nicer than their cheaper counterparts but I think most people would be lying if they don't say having access to them also gives them some status boost, if only internally. Can't turn off the monkey in the head easily.
seanalltogether 4y ago
Yeah all my group conversations in Ireland are on whatsapp now, but I think this is mostly due to the fact that carriers still charge extra to send photos over sms. It's just not worth it to use sms anymore.
greenbub1 4y ago
> This deep integration with colours and status symbols does remain in specific areas like middle school where it is still seen as important to try to project wealth. Are the kids wrong? When I look at my app’s stats, Android users are worse in every way. More expensive to develop for, pay less or none at all, and their halo effect is sometimes negative: they might word-of-mouth my app to more Android users instead of more iOS users.
- williamscales 4y ago
  All I can say is that there are dozens of us! who pay for Android apps. > pay less or none at all Maybe just make the app paid only?
- denismurphy 4y ago
  > More expensive to develop for As iOS developer i disagree, You can develop android app on any platform that support JDK you pay a one-time registration fee of €25, Google Play is faster at approving apps (anecdotal evidence from working on team that support both iOS and Android) iOS apps have to be compiled on recent Mac with latest version of macOS, you pay a yearly fee of €100 and AppStore review process is more in-dept especially for new apps
  - lupire 4y ago
    Not saying Apple deserves the $100, am saying that's not the expensive part of app dev.
- vachina 4y ago
  > pay less or none at all Maybe because there is always a free alternative that is better than yours. Whereas iOS users only has the App Store, and if they don’t pay they don’t get app.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Keep telling yourself a paycheck has no affect on app quality if it makes you feel better.
chinchilla2020 4y ago
I agree that this is a middle school level analysis, but I've seen it a couple times in practice during my career. 1. In the dating scene, I have heard women remark that it was a red flag (Android users are stereotypically poor... despite a large number of techies using Android) 2. A manager at my old company was advised to get an iphone for communication with VCs. One of our old leaders had heard commentary from a VC at one point about the text message colors.
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  Those VCs are the VCs you don't want money from anyway.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  - joecot 4y ago
    It has nothing to do with "toxic femininity", it's classism. And no one's "banning" you from using this term, you're just getting downvoted for your performative "Cancel Culture" signalling.
    - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
      yes it does. It is well known that women have a proclivity to climb the social ladder and marry upwards, therefore desiring wealth etc. Duckduckgo hypergamy. I obviously used the term in a sarcastic manner, to show how stupid it is, together with its sister term
    - derac 4y ago
      This seems to be related to both gender roles and class. The culture around the male role in a diadic relationship is classist. I wouldn't use the term toxic femininity, but I think in spirit it has some merit. The complaining about what words you "can say" is annoying for sure.
yieldcrv 4y ago
so its only an American thing because everyone in your continent agrees that SMS sucks too and should shun anyone using it Yes, thats exactly whats going on in the US as well (and yes, we know that Google has recently adopted some other open source messaging standard that now Apple hasn't.)
- alvarezbjm-hn 4y ago
ahaseeb 4y ago
Absolutely but in US, you'll be surprised how much texting is still used

nottorp 4y ago

Yeah, no one uses plain sms messages across the pond any more. And sms group chats? I only know about sms group chats from US posters. You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that.

ericmay 4y ago
> You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that. Yea but that's a problem too.
- scatters 4y ago
  WhatsApp doesn't have anywhere near the same lockin as Apple. You can run multiple messaging apps even on a low end android phone.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Lock-in through the network effect is lock in. The fact that it’s the de facto standard outside the US is quite a network effect. SMS by contrast is an open standard.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      > Lock-in through the network effect is lock in. Exactly. If your complaint is about being locked in but the platform you use is the one everyone has to use because of network effect or otherwise you yourself are locked in with that platform.
    - scatters 4y ago
      The network effect only results in lock-in if there's an obstacle to using multiple networks at the same time. Obviously no-one is going to carry around two phones, so that's how Apple achieves lock-in. By contrast, keeping two or more messaging apps running is trivial. And SMS is irrelevant.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      SMS is just terrible though, and is just not worth using. It is plain text, limited in size and simply has less features.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        What anyone means when they say SMS post ~2010 is SMS/MMS
        kaba0 4y ago
        It didn't get better.
        kube-system 4y ago
        That's just like, your opinion, man. SMS/MMS is decentralized, open, and works on every modern mobile phone out of the box. No other text messaging technology does this yet.
        kaba0 4y ago
        Open for Verizon to read/modify, you have no way of knowing the other half’s identity (was their number given to someone else in the meanwhile), no encoding is specified/due to non-ASCII characters taking more SPACE (in 2022) so auto-SMSs still today will just force ascii text, making it often unreadable. Like, it is literally a single digit number of bytes difference. Also, you need like.. a carrier plan to access, wouldn’t really call that open. Any network based messenger can work over my home or even McDonald’s wifi, without any third-parties
  - ericmay 4y ago
    Did you mean WhatsApp doesn't have anywhere near the same lock in as the Messages app? I don't know what you mean by "same lock in as Apple". I also don't know what you would mean by lock in with the Messages app. What's locked in? I can use WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, WeChat, or any number of communication apps on my iPhone effortlessly.
    - scatters 4y ago
      Apple's messages app isn't really an app; it comes preinstalled on the phone, you can't remove it or substitute it with another app, and you can't install it on non-Apple hardware. The lock-in is obvious: if you're part of Apple-oriented chat groups you can't switch to Android without losing access to those groups, degrading the experience for everyone, or convincing each one of those groups to make the switch to a multi-platform alternative. Claiming not to see this is disingenuous.
      - ericmay 4y ago
        > Apple's messages app isn't really an app; it comes preinstalled on the phone, you can't remove it or substitute it with another app, and you can't install it on non-Apple hardware. I'm not sure, but I don't think you can actually uninstall the default SMS from Android phones either without having another app installed at a minimum and then I bet similar to Messages if you were to somehow uninstall that app then the default app would appear since it's probably part of the core operating system (similar to other basic functionality like settings or a phone app to receive calls). I don't know what you mean by you cannot substitute Messages with another app. If I didn't want to use Messages I would just disable all settings and remove it from the home screen and use whatever I wanted instead just fine. You are correct that you cannot install Messages on non-Apple hardware. Not all software is open source or available for all platforms. For example I cannot install Playstation software on my Xbox, nor can I buy a Nest Thermostat and install a competitor's software on it (without hacking both of course). There are games that are made that aren't created with support for macOS. Etc. > if you're part of Apple-oriented chat groups you can't switch to Android without losing access to those groups What is an Apple-oriented chat group?
  - checkyoursudo 4y ago
    I can run WhatsApp on my iPhone. I cannot get my kids' school parents-group not to use WhatsApp. It was a pain to get even my best friends in Europe to use anything except WhatsApp.
    - stevedzreams 4y ago
      What did you propose as the alterntive?
    - scatters 4y ago
      Well done that parents' group. Obviously something like Signal would be better, but that'll happen once there's enough social consensus.
      - ls15 4y ago
        Meanwhile, I am lighting a candle for every poor soul that has been pressured into installing Meta products.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Is WhatsApp open? Are there alternative clients?
    - scatters 4y ago
      Even better: it's a player in a competitive market. So you can switch your chats one-by-one to Signal, Telegram or whatever floats your boat.
      - criddell 4y ago
        What do you mean by switch your chats. You can’t have the chat in more than one client at a time?
        scatters 4y ago
        Yes, that's why it's switching.
      - ls15 4y ago
        I am glad that the EU actually has another definition of letting people use what is floating their boat: Force big-tech player to open up protocols, so users can send messages from any messenger to any other messenger. https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/24/dma-political-agreement/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/24/dma-political-agreement/ As a user I cannot see any downsides.
taylodl 4y ago
Using Facebook to do messaging? No thanks! Sure, when communicating with international friends I use WhatsApp because that appears to be what the rest of the world uses, but here in the States? No. We don't trust Zuckerberg. And yes, iMessage group chats are very much a thing here in the States and SMS group chats in general. And also yes, there's always that techie friend with an Android and makes your whole conversation go "green." Thing is, only middle schoolers really seem to care. I just know it means the communication isn't secured end-to-end.
- brokenkebab2 4y ago
  I didn't like FB well before it became fashionable, but I don't understand your logic here: what is that exactly that you can't entrust WhatsApp to send, but you can trust Apple, or your mobile carrier?
  - ar_lan 4y ago
    I'm not really answering your question, but in the States, there is a lot more trust placed in Apple over Facebook. This isn't that surprising - Apple has a much stauncher stance on privacy than alternatives. I wish Signal would be more popular, but it's just not. I can't really ask new people I meet to communicate over Signal because it's a burden to get others to install some new application.
    - nottorp 4y ago
      Im tired of super secure apps that ask for your phone number and even publish it to your contacts. Wake me up when Signal doesnt depend on a phone number any more.
    - Dma54rhs 4y ago
      DMing on Instagram is super popular in USA. Most of the people don't give a shit about privacy to begin with.
  - mmmlinux 4y ago
    Facebook's goal is to extract as much information from you as possible. Apple wants to sell you a new phone.
alistairSH 4y ago
How do you message when you don't have wifi/data? I can SMS from more remote places than I can any internet-based service.
- coldtea 4y ago
  In most of the world you do have either wifi or data coverage. Usually, if you don't have data for signal (as opposed to run out of data in your plan) reasons, then you don't have signal at all, even for SMS, either...
- bmicraft 4y ago
  I've never been anywhere where I legitimately had signal but no data. When it seems to be connected buy isn't, sms mostly also won't go though. I also think there are less "remote" places in europe in general.
- joecot 4y ago
  You don't. But in the US I'm rarely in a place where I have no data but SMS still works. And Europe has more effective telecom service.
  - culturestate 4y ago
    > Europe has more effective telecom service Some of Europe has very effective telecom infrastructure, but that's far from universal.
    - dghughes 4y ago
      Cries in Canadian :(
      - culturestate 4y ago
        It could be worse. Service is so famously bad in Germany that they invented a word for it - Funklochrepublik, which basically means "radio hole republic."
reaperducer 4y ago
You can just assume everyone has Whatsapp here, and just message them over that. Trusting your private conversations to ~Facebook~ Meta is also a signal.
nottorp 4y ago
Id rather not exclude people who dont have an iPhone, either because they cant afford it or believe Samsung marketing.
mmcnl 4y ago
Even iMessage is barely used. In The Netherlands, WhatsApp is king. And WhatsApp doesn't discriminate.

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

> in specific areas like middle school where it is still seen as important to try to project wealth. Surely it's not middle school when people try to project wealth the most.. kids care more about who has an iPhone than adults but adults project wealth _a lot_ more than kids overall: fancy cars, homes, holidays etc. More expensive things are also nicer than their cheaper counterparts but I think most people would be lying if they don't say having access to them also gives them some status boost, if only internally. Can't turn off the monkey in the head easily.

seanalltogether 4y ago

Yeah all my group conversations in Ireland are on whatsapp now, but I think this is mostly due to the fact that carriers still charge extra to send photos over sms. It's just not worth it to use sms anymore.

greenbub1 4y ago

> This deep integration with colours and status symbols does remain in specific areas like middle school where it is still seen as important to try to project wealth. Are the kids wrong? When I look at my app’s stats, Android users are worse in every way. More expensive to develop for, pay less or none at all, and their halo effect is sometimes negative: they might word-of-mouth my app to more Android users instead of more iOS users.

williamscales 4y ago
All I can say is that there are dozens of us! who pay for Android apps. > pay less or none at all Maybe just make the app paid only?
denismurphy 4y ago
> More expensive to develop for As iOS developer i disagree, You can develop android app on any platform that support JDK you pay a one-time registration fee of €25, Google Play is faster at approving apps (anecdotal evidence from working on team that support both iOS and Android) iOS apps have to be compiled on recent Mac with latest version of macOS, you pay a yearly fee of €100 and AppStore review process is more in-dept especially for new apps
- lupire 4y ago
  Not saying Apple deserves the $100, am saying that's not the expensive part of app dev.
vachina 4y ago
> pay less or none at all Maybe because there is always a free alternative that is better than yours. Whereas iOS users only has the App Store, and if they don’t pay they don’t get app.
- samatman 4y ago
  Keep telling yourself a paycheck has no affect on app quality if it makes you feel better.

chinchilla2020 4y ago

I agree that this is a middle school level analysis, but I've seen it a couple times in practice during my career. 1. In the dating scene, I have heard women remark that it was a red flag (Android users are stereotypically poor... despite a large number of techies using Android) 2. A manager at my old company was advised to get an iphone for communication with VCs. One of our old leaders had heard commentary from a VC at one point about the text message colors.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Those VCs are the VCs you don't want money from anyway.
4gotunameagain 4y ago
- joecot 4y ago
  It has nothing to do with "toxic femininity", it's classism. And no one's "banning" you from using this term, you're just getting downvoted for your performative "Cancel Culture" signalling.
  - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    yes it does. It is well known that women have a proclivity to climb the social ladder and marry upwards, therefore desiring wealth etc. Duckduckgo hypergamy. I obviously used the term in a sarcastic manner, to show how stupid it is, together with its sister term
  - derac 4y ago
    This seems to be related to both gender roles and class. The culture around the male role in a diadic relationship is classist. I wouldn't use the term toxic femininity, but I think in spirit it has some merit. The complaining about what words you "can say" is annoying for sure.

yieldcrv 4y ago

so its only an American thing because everyone in your continent agrees that SMS sucks too and should shun anyone using it Yes, thats exactly whats going on in the US as well (and yes, we know that Google has recently adopted some other open source messaging standard that now Apple hasn't.)

alvarezbjm-hn 4y ago

ahaseeb 4y ago

Absolutely but in US, you'll be surprised how much texting is still used