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I joined an old school forum during the pandemic and have really enjoyed it. You are able to "like" posts but if you want to express disapproval you have to jum

I joined an old school forum during the pandemic and have really enjoyed it. You are able to "like" posts but if you want to express disapproval you have to jump into the discussion and air your arguments. The moderators are not perfectly consistent but they tend to err on the side of leaving a discussion open even if it's a bit of a train wreck. I've noticed that not being able to silently disagree/disapprove results in a community where people who genuinely and fundamentally disagree with each other end up interacting a lot and often become friends. I don't think any particular format is right, just adding my experience.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
I think the 'downvote' is neither useful nor healthy, indeed. Very often it is also implemented in conjunction with other UI features which make downvoted comments disappear, which ends up creating an echo-chamber and dissuades dissenting comments.
- madamelic 4y ago
  Downvote is tricky. It is useful when used correctly but as can be seen on Reddit (and somewhat on HN but it typically balances out) it is used as "I disagree" / "I don't like this" vs being used more like a moderation tool "this has nothing to do with the conversation". I like how HN restricts the downvote for a while but I think with Reddit being so popular there should be an opt-in where you have to acknowledge the statement "The downvote is a moderation tool and isn't used to express disagreement" (I feel like that near exact verbage is somewhere like in the guidelines but I am meaning making it required acknowledgement).
  - dahart 4y ago
    I agree, but struggle with the assumption that downvote should be for moderation. That was (and partly is) my own assumption here on HN, but after being here for a while I started wondering why we don’t treat it symmetrically. Upvote is widely used for “I agree” and “I like this” and lots of other reasons, why shouldn’t downvote do the same thing? It also makes getting downvoted feel less painful to realize people do use it like this, for a wide variety of whimsical reasons (just like with upvote), it’s not always suggesting you’re wrong or breaking the rules. On HN before I had access to the downvote, getting one felt so strongly negative I decided I wouldn’t use it, and have stuck to that ever since. But in the mean time, I started to see real utility in it’s effects as a soft moderation tool. Downvoting someone who’s relevant but wrong or making invalid assumptions wouldn’t meet your strict moderation requirement, but downvotes do tend to sort the conversation correctly helping keep the good stuff at the top, and also being a signal (albeit imperfect) for readers. Using upvotes also helps with the sort, but doesn’t change the color of comments (maybe it should!). So I’ve questioned myself whether I should stick to not downvoting, and I only keep avoiding it out of some sort of ritual or pride or something, I dunno. It’s interesting because upvotes here are used far more frequently than downvotes, and downvotes are strictly limited, but we still have disproportionately strong reactions to downvotes. It’s also worth noticing how because downvotes change a comment’s color, it often prevents people from piling on; many comments stay at 1 or 2 downvotes and people leave it alone after that, even when many many people notice it’s wrong or breaking guidelines.
- jrumbut 4y ago
  I tend to think of forums that have a down vote mechanism (along with karma) as being like those crystal growing kits. By discussion and voting the community grows a consensus crystal and then gradually refines ways to express the consensus. Sometimes you want that! Other times you don't.
- genghisjahn 4y ago
  One of the things o really liked about slashdot was seeing two comments marked “insightful” that argued opposite sides of an issue.
- CM30 4y ago
  Part of me wonders whether splitting downvote and disagree would fix this. I know in quite a few forums there's a system where like and dislike are separate reactions from agree and disagree, with the latter ones not affecting the 'score' in the slightest. Maybe it'd be even better if neither existed, and you had to vote a reason you liked or disliked a post, like 'is spam', 'is insightful', etc. Not letting people just say "I disagree with this" without a reason might help remove this pendantry and echo filterness.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

I think the 'downvote' is neither useful nor healthy, indeed. Very often it is also implemented in conjunction with other UI features which make downvoted comments disappear, which ends up creating an echo-chamber and dissuades dissenting comments.

madamelic 4y ago
Downvote is tricky. It is useful when used correctly but as can be seen on Reddit (and somewhat on HN but it typically balances out) it is used as "I disagree" / "I don't like this" vs being used more like a moderation tool "this has nothing to do with the conversation". I like how HN restricts the downvote for a while but I think with Reddit being so popular there should be an opt-in where you have to acknowledge the statement "The downvote is a moderation tool and isn't used to express disagreement" (I feel like that near exact verbage is somewhere like in the guidelines but I am meaning making it required acknowledgement).
- dahart 4y ago
  I agree, but struggle with the assumption that downvote should be for moderation. That was (and partly is) my own assumption here on HN, but after being here for a while I started wondering why we don’t treat it symmetrically. Upvote is widely used for “I agree” and “I like this” and lots of other reasons, why shouldn’t downvote do the same thing? It also makes getting downvoted feel less painful to realize people do use it like this, for a wide variety of whimsical reasons (just like with upvote), it’s not always suggesting you’re wrong or breaking the rules. On HN before I had access to the downvote, getting one felt so strongly negative I decided I wouldn’t use it, and have stuck to that ever since. But in the mean time, I started to see real utility in it’s effects as a soft moderation tool. Downvoting someone who’s relevant but wrong or making invalid assumptions wouldn’t meet your strict moderation requirement, but downvotes do tend to sort the conversation correctly helping keep the good stuff at the top, and also being a signal (albeit imperfect) for readers. Using upvotes also helps with the sort, but doesn’t change the color of comments (maybe it should!). So I’ve questioned myself whether I should stick to not downvoting, and I only keep avoiding it out of some sort of ritual or pride or something, I dunno. It’s interesting because upvotes here are used far more frequently than downvotes, and downvotes are strictly limited, but we still have disproportionately strong reactions to downvotes. It’s also worth noticing how because downvotes change a comment’s color, it often prevents people from piling on; many comments stay at 1 or 2 downvotes and people leave it alone after that, even when many many people notice it’s wrong or breaking guidelines.
jrumbut 4y ago
I tend to think of forums that have a down vote mechanism (along with karma) as being like those crystal growing kits. By discussion and voting the community grows a consensus crystal and then gradually refines ways to express the consensus. Sometimes you want that! Other times you don't.
genghisjahn 4y ago
One of the things o really liked about slashdot was seeing two comments marked “insightful” that argued opposite sides of an issue.
CM30 4y ago
Part of me wonders whether splitting downvote and disagree would fix this. I know in quite a few forums there's a system where like and dislike are separate reactions from agree and disagree, with the latter ones not affecting the 'score' in the slightest. Maybe it'd be even better if neither existed, and you had to vote a reason you liked or disliked a post, like 'is spam', 'is insightful', etc. Not letting people just say "I disagree with this" without a reason might help remove this pendantry and echo filterness.