4 ms·

There are studies showing bias against women, there are studies showing bias against men. This should remind us not to take any one reported bias and conclude t

There are studies showing bias against women, there are studies showing bias against men. This should remind us not to take any one reported bias and conclude that it represents the overall relationship between the sexes, even if politically convenient to do so.

webmobdev 4y ago
Note though that even though this sounds like a positive and "well-meaning" bias, it can be dysfunctional too. Holding someone to a higher standard also has a "reverse" psychological effect that when they deviate or stray away from the expected standards, people are harsher on them than they usually would be. This is why, when coupled with regressive societal norms, "honour killing" of women happen (the extreme worst-case example). (Related - The problem with putting someone on a pedestal - https://pairedlife.com/etiquette/onapedestal https://pairedlife.com/etiquette/onapedestal ).
- DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago
  > This is why, when coupled with regressive societal norms, "honour killing" of women happen (the extreme worst-case example). Sounds a bit like the gender-swapped version of "deserters get shot"
- fundad 4y ago
  Yes this isn’t benevolent sexism, it’s sexism sexism.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > Holding someone to a higher standard also has a "reverse" psychological effect that when they deviate or stray away from the expected standards, people are harsher on them than they usually would be. That sounds strange. Women are held to a higher standard, yet when they commit crimes, we punish them less severely than men. How would that fit into your narrative?
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    That's an insightful question. One rational for this could be that we shouldn't see this in isolation and should also consider other societal aspects too, mainly - (1) women are perceived as the weaker sex (2) women who commit crimes are actually much lower than male criminals and (3) male pride (men too are held to some unreasonably high standards in society, one of popular ones being that men need to protect women and always be chivalrous towards them). So a male dominated society, while holding a "fallen" woman in contempt, might still irrationally blame themselves for "failing to protect" a woman from going waylaid and thus award her a less harsher punishment to assuage their guilt and as an act to "protect" her from further harm. (This is perhaps why many are now advocating for gender neutral laws because some laws do prescribe different treatment based on the gender of the person involved). Note though that while a judicial punishment might be less severe, the societal contempt that such women face lasts much longer than with a man in a similar situation. Indeed, while, despite the contempt they feel, the judicial system can show restraint due to their legal training to disregard emotions, others in society don't often hold back in showing their disgust and contempt towards a "fallen" women, depending on what gender specific societal standard she has violated. In my own society (in India), I have seen woman who have committed adultery (no longer a crime) being treated more harshly by society than men who have also committed a similar act. From the point of view of our discussion, this could be because the standard ("that woman should display higher level of control over their sexual desire and be more empathetic") is gender specific, and doesn't equally apply to the men for whom the societal standard is different ("men too are expected to control their sexual urges but they can be forgiven as they cannot indulge in it unless a woman consents").
denton-scratch 4y ago
They say that female call-centre responders are preferred to male ones. I'm less likely to kick-off at a female call-centre responder if the service is awful, than to a male responder. But the responders I'm happiest with are usually male responders (preferably with a lowlands scottish accent).
moe091 4y ago
any sexism inherently has a counter-effect on the opposite sex. e.g women being viewed as homemakers and not being taken seriously in professional environments has the counter-effect that men are hoisted with the responsibility of making a living and creating a successful career and are judged more harshly for failing to do that. men and women both have issues caused by sexism and it's okay to acknowledge both. I only think it's taken too far sometimes when either sex acts like they are the only ones with problems. Also, lets just be honest here, women have it worse as the ROOT of all these dual-edged sexist beliefs stems from a tendency to not view women as REAL people. Some cultures are worse than others with this but I'd argue that pretty much EVERY culture still has certain views on women that, consciously or not, restrict their personal freedom. There are certain benefits to this(e.g being judged less harshly in court, people being more likely to treat you nicely, do favors, etc) but all of those "benefits" are the result of others not viewing the woman in question as a full, independent person who is capable of making their own decisions and forming their own thoughts/beliefs outside the context of being a woman

webmobdev 4y ago

Note though that even though this sounds like a positive and "well-meaning" bias, it can be dysfunctional too. Holding someone to a higher standard also has a "reverse" psychological effect that when they deviate or stray away from the expected standards, people are harsher on them than they usually would be. This is why, when coupled with regressive societal norms, "honour killing" of women happen (the extreme worst-case example). (Related - The problem with putting someone on a pedestal - https://pairedlife.com/etiquette/onapedestal https://pairedlife.com/etiquette/onapedestal ).

DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago
> This is why, when coupled with regressive societal norms, "honour killing" of women happen (the extreme worst-case example). Sounds a bit like the gender-swapped version of "deserters get shot"
fundad 4y ago
Yes this isn’t benevolent sexism, it’s sexism sexism.
luckylion 4y ago
> Holding someone to a higher standard also has a "reverse" psychological effect that when they deviate or stray away from the expected standards, people are harsher on them than they usually would be. That sounds strange. Women are held to a higher standard, yet when they commit crimes, we punish them less severely than men. How would that fit into your narrative?
- webmobdev 4y ago
  That's an insightful question. One rational for this could be that we shouldn't see this in isolation and should also consider other societal aspects too, mainly - (1) women are perceived as the weaker sex (2) women who commit crimes are actually much lower than male criminals and (3) male pride (men too are held to some unreasonably high standards in society, one of popular ones being that men need to protect women and always be chivalrous towards them). So a male dominated society, while holding a "fallen" woman in contempt, might still irrationally blame themselves for "failing to protect" a woman from going waylaid and thus award her a less harsher punishment to assuage their guilt and as an act to "protect" her from further harm. (This is perhaps why many are now advocating for gender neutral laws because some laws do prescribe different treatment based on the gender of the person involved). Note though that while a judicial punishment might be less severe, the societal contempt that such women face lasts much longer than with a man in a similar situation. Indeed, while, despite the contempt they feel, the judicial system can show restraint due to their legal training to disregard emotions, others in society don't often hold back in showing their disgust and contempt towards a "fallen" women, depending on what gender specific societal standard she has violated. In my own society (in India), I have seen woman who have committed adultery (no longer a crime) being treated more harshly by society than men who have also committed a similar act. From the point of view of our discussion, this could be because the standard ("that woman should display higher level of control over their sexual desire and be more empathetic") is gender specific, and doesn't equally apply to the men for whom the societal standard is different ("men too are expected to control their sexual urges but they can be forgiven as they cannot indulge in it unless a woman consents").

denton-scratch 4y ago

They say that female call-centre responders are preferred to male ones. I'm less likely to kick-off at a female call-centre responder if the service is awful, than to a male responder. But the responders I'm happiest with are usually male responders (preferably with a lowlands scottish accent).

moe091 4y ago

any sexism inherently has a counter-effect on the opposite sex. e.g women being viewed as homemakers and not being taken seriously in professional environments has the counter-effect that men are hoisted with the responsibility of making a living and creating a successful career and are judged more harshly for failing to do that. men and women both have issues caused by sexism and it's okay to acknowledge both. I only think it's taken too far sometimes when either sex acts like they are the only ones with problems. Also, lets just be honest here, women have it worse as the ROOT of all these dual-edged sexist beliefs stems from a tendency to not view women as REAL people. Some cultures are worse than others with this but I'd argue that pretty much EVERY culture still has certain views on women that, consciously or not, restrict their personal freedom. There are certain benefits to this(e.g being judged less harshly in court, people being more likely to treat you nicely, do favors, etc) but all of those "benefits" are the result of others not viewing the woman in question as a full, independent person who is capable of making their own decisions and forming their own thoughts/beliefs outside the context of being a woman