4 ms·

> We need global regulations for them. But that will never happen. That is a pessimist outlook, all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such me

> We need global regulations for them. But that will never happen. That is a pessimist outlook, all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such measures and plastic pollution in the world would fall an order of magnitude. The problem is not lack of _global_ regulations, just spineless politicians.

Huh1337 4y ago
What kind of regulation of these corporations do you envision? It's not them making the waste - it's the people-consumers who are not throwing the bottles away for recycling, or their countries not recycling locally and instead just throwing away the waste somewhere else. What about that is changed by regulating Coca Cola?
- super256 4y ago
  I think the best way is to follow the German solution: When you buy a bottle/can, you place a collateral there for each bottle, like 50 cent per bottle. You only get the deposit back when you return the bottles to some supermarket. I really like this model, and it works over here. Of course, you still need a working recycling chain, but at least it incentives individual people to properly bring their rubbish to the recycling places.
  - Huh1337 4y ago
    But the problem is not in this part of the chain. The states then take their collected plastic waste and ship it away - and that's what we're reading about here in TFA. Collecting the waste is not so hard - today you have automated sorting lines that can separate plastic waste from other waste and some people are saying it's actually better than separating the waste during collection because maintaining separate plastic waste/other waste disposal infrastructures comes out as more costly and less ecological (2 specialized trucks instead of 1 general, etc). This whole problem is about what's done with the collected waste after it leaves the garbage bins at stores or elsewhere.
  - titzer 4y ago
    Indeed, and some of the plastic bottles are actually really thick and heavy and are reused, e.g. the Adelholzener ones, which they claim they reuse up to 15x: https://www.adelholzener.de/nachhaltigkeit-und-werte/zukunftsfitte-verpackungen/ https://www.adelholzener.de/nachhaltigkeit-und-werte/zukunft...
    - thfuran 4y ago
      Are they significantly less than 15x thicker and heavier than the cheap, single-use alternatives?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > the German solution Created in 2003, about 32 years after Oregon created the first bottle bill. Which reminds me, I need to take the bin of cans to the local drop site.
    - super256 4y ago
      TIL. I must say that I'm quite surprised that such a bill was first introduced in the US.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        9 of the 10 US states with bottle deposits implemented those laws in the late 70s or early 80s. The relative autonomy of US states often means that states can move very quickly to pass progressive laws, even though the US is well known for legislative friction at the federal level.
- belmont_sup 4y ago
  We’ve tried this line of reasoning ever since the plastic industry had pushed for recycling as a means of reusing plastic when they know it’ll never be economically feasible to do so. So might as well try something new and fix excessive plastic waste at a different point in the lifecycle.
  - Huh1337 4y ago
    So your solution is to ban plastic entirely? If so, then sure, let's talk about it - I'm not picking sides, I don't care about plastic bottles that much (or at all). What would you pick as the replacement?
    - addingadimensio 4y ago
      Stop selling crap that needs to be packaged in single use plastic a simple solution That will destroy entire industries with impunity industries that do nothing but poison our bodies and our planet.
      - Huh1337 4y ago
        So how do I buy a coke? Are you suggesting I drink water and nothing else? Sorry I'm not going to support your vision of the world.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  > It's not them making the waste - it's the people-consumers who are not throwing the bottles away for recycling I can't tell if this is ignorant or ill-intended. The 'recycled' material from these markets is getting shipped to Southeast Asia and dumped in landfills as per the original link in this submission. Ask yourself if what you say is real, then there would be no need for new plastic from crude oil since our market would be interely circular with recycled plastic. Plastic recycling pelets have a very limited use and there are only a handful of countries were consumers care about it where manufacturers mix in some recycled pelets and claim the plastic is from (partially) recicled plastic. Recycled plastic is greyish in coloration (you can't make it transparent) and far more brittle than 'new' plastic. Recycling plastic was a con all along to allow corporations to make a fortune on packaging cost savings.
  - Huh1337 4y ago
    OK, and what kind of regulation do you envision to solve this problem?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      We could demand reusable glass bottles but some say the washing takes more energy than new. Maybe aluminum would work.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        Washing, and transport. Plastic is the lightest, thinnest packaging material we have. Reducing its use may means trucks carrying less stuff that is heavier.
        bombcar 4y ago
        Yeah, according to https://www.roetell.com/glass-vs-plastic-vs-aluminum-containers/ https://www.roetell.com/glass-vs-plastic-vs-aluminum-contain... it can be a 40:1 ratio. Though you could counter-act that with more local bottling plants so that transport is shorter. In other words, don't bottle the soda in George and ship it to New York or whatever, but actually have multiple local bottling/washing plants in New York itself.
- lesuorac 4y ago
  Well no duh people are producing the waste. We were literally told to by thier advertising teams [1]. It's always kind of strange how people how people never wonder how we got from a society where stuff got reused a million times to one where we don't. [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vintage-ads-plastic_n_5cdb1768e4b01e9bd3540ffa https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vintage-ads-plastic_n_5cdb176...
- ehnto 4y ago
  What you're seeing isn't consumers failing to recycle, it is councils being unable to fund the infrastructure required for recycling, and the councils are voting with their comparatively empty wallets. So even when you are a good little consumer and put it in the recycling bin, not all councils can afford to recycle it properly, because it is a difficult and costly problem to solve at scale. So Coca-cola reaps all the benefits, while councils pay for all the cleanup. Being pragmatic here though, whoever is ultimately at fault doesn't matter, because the outcome is clear: councils are poorer, coca-cola is richer, and the earth is full of plastic. So do we wait for the sudden and unprecedented cooperation of consumers across the globe, or do we regulate plastic? As for how to regulate, I would suggest that plastic recycling is paid for by the companies that produce the plastic, perhaps through levies per-kg of produced plastic that ultimately make it more costly to use than more environmentally friendly materials. This would help councils/countries afford recycling infrastructure for plastic that makes enough sense, and it would naturally be more economical to use less plastic. We need a way to set a "Tradeoff cost" at a community level, similar to how there are taxes on fuels for cars.
  - mjhay 4y ago
    Plastic recycling works poorly when all conditions are met. Even ideally, most "recycled" plastic doesn't get recycled. What does is of much lower grade and unsuitable for many applications - and can't really be recycled again.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such measures and plastic pollution in the world would fall an order of magnitude. Yeah, that's exactly what we need but the politicians in the US and EU are too well greased and too vested in the valuation of these mega corporations because the ugly truth is these companies provide a lot of money and jobs in their home countries and regulating the amount of waste and environmental damage they can do globally (in poorer less regulated countries) would reduce the money and jobs they bring in their home countries.
rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
> all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such measures and plastic pollution in the world would fall an order of magnitude Hahahaha wow, who would have thought it was that easy? Also, politicians do nothing about a problem not because they are spineless (about losing popularity, I think, is what you mean), but because they gain something out of not doing a thing about the problem. Many of the poor countries cited in the article might be democracies, but they are weak democracies with regulatory capture of private enterprises.

Huh1337 4y ago

What kind of regulation of these corporations do you envision? It's not them making the waste - it's the people-consumers who are not throwing the bottles away for recycling, or their countries not recycling locally and instead just throwing away the waste somewhere else. What about that is changed by regulating Coca Cola?

super256 4y ago
I think the best way is to follow the German solution: When you buy a bottle/can, you place a collateral there for each bottle, like 50 cent per bottle. You only get the deposit back when you return the bottles to some supermarket. I really like this model, and it works over here. Of course, you still need a working recycling chain, but at least it incentives individual people to properly bring their rubbish to the recycling places.
- Huh1337 4y ago
  But the problem is not in this part of the chain. The states then take their collected plastic waste and ship it away - and that's what we're reading about here in TFA. Collecting the waste is not so hard - today you have automated sorting lines that can separate plastic waste from other waste and some people are saying it's actually better than separating the waste during collection because maintaining separate plastic waste/other waste disposal infrastructures comes out as more costly and less ecological (2 specialized trucks instead of 1 general, etc). This whole problem is about what's done with the collected waste after it leaves the garbage bins at stores or elsewhere.
- titzer 4y ago
  Indeed, and some of the plastic bottles are actually really thick and heavy and are reused, e.g. the Adelholzener ones, which they claim they reuse up to 15x: https://www.adelholzener.de/nachhaltigkeit-und-werte/zukunftsfitte-verpackungen/ https://www.adelholzener.de/nachhaltigkeit-und-werte/zukunft...
  - thfuran 4y ago
    Are they significantly less than 15x thicker and heavier than the cheap, single-use alternatives?
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > the German solution Created in 2003, about 32 years after Oregon created the first bottle bill. Which reminds me, I need to take the bin of cans to the local drop site.
  - super256 4y ago
    TIL. I must say that I'm quite surprised that such a bill was first introduced in the US.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      9 of the 10 US states with bottle deposits implemented those laws in the late 70s or early 80s. The relative autonomy of US states often means that states can move very quickly to pass progressive laws, even though the US is well known for legislative friction at the federal level.
belmont_sup 4y ago
We’ve tried this line of reasoning ever since the plastic industry had pushed for recycling as a means of reusing plastic when they know it’ll never be economically feasible to do so. So might as well try something new and fix excessive plastic waste at a different point in the lifecycle.
- Huh1337 4y ago
  So your solution is to ban plastic entirely? If so, then sure, let's talk about it - I'm not picking sides, I don't care about plastic bottles that much (or at all). What would you pick as the replacement?
  - addingadimensio 4y ago
    Stop selling crap that needs to be packaged in single use plastic a simple solution That will destroy entire industries with impunity industries that do nothing but poison our bodies and our planet.
    - Huh1337 4y ago
      So how do I buy a coke? Are you suggesting I drink water and nothing else? Sorry I'm not going to support your vision of the world.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
> It's not them making the waste - it's the people-consumers who are not throwing the bottles away for recycling I can't tell if this is ignorant or ill-intended. The 'recycled' material from these markets is getting shipped to Southeast Asia and dumped in landfills as per the original link in this submission. Ask yourself if what you say is real, then there would be no need for new plastic from crude oil since our market would be interely circular with recycled plastic. Plastic recycling pelets have a very limited use and there are only a handful of countries were consumers care about it where manufacturers mix in some recycled pelets and claim the plastic is from (partially) recicled plastic. Recycled plastic is greyish in coloration (you can't make it transparent) and far more brittle than 'new' plastic. Recycling plastic was a con all along to allow corporations to make a fortune on packaging cost savings.
- Huh1337 4y ago
  OK, and what kind of regulation do you envision to solve this problem?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    We could demand reusable glass bottles but some say the washing takes more energy than new. Maybe aluminum would work.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      Washing, and transport. Plastic is the lightest, thinnest packaging material we have. Reducing its use may means trucks carrying less stuff that is heavier.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Yeah, according to https://www.roetell.com/glass-vs-plastic-vs-aluminum-containers/ https://www.roetell.com/glass-vs-plastic-vs-aluminum-contain... it can be a 40:1 ratio. Though you could counter-act that with more local bottling plants so that transport is shorter. In other words, don't bottle the soda in George and ship it to New York or whatever, but actually have multiple local bottling/washing plants in New York itself.
lesuorac 4y ago
Well no duh people are producing the waste. We were literally told to by thier advertising teams [1]. It's always kind of strange how people how people never wonder how we got from a society where stuff got reused a million times to one where we don't. [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vintage-ads-plastic_n_5cdb1768e4b01e9bd3540ffa https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vintage-ads-plastic_n_5cdb176...
ehnto 4y ago
What you're seeing isn't consumers failing to recycle, it is councils being unable to fund the infrastructure required for recycling, and the councils are voting with their comparatively empty wallets. So even when you are a good little consumer and put it in the recycling bin, not all councils can afford to recycle it properly, because it is a difficult and costly problem to solve at scale. So Coca-cola reaps all the benefits, while councils pay for all the cleanup. Being pragmatic here though, whoever is ultimately at fault doesn't matter, because the outcome is clear: councils are poorer, coca-cola is richer, and the earth is full of plastic. So do we wait for the sudden and unprecedented cooperation of consumers across the globe, or do we regulate plastic? As for how to regulate, I would suggest that plastic recycling is paid for by the companies that produce the plastic, perhaps through levies per-kg of produced plastic that ultimately make it more costly to use than more environmentally friendly materials. This would help councils/countries afford recycling infrastructure for plastic that makes enough sense, and it would naturally be more economical to use less plastic. We need a way to set a "Tradeoff cost" at a community level, similar to how there are taxes on fuels for cars.
- mjhay 4y ago
  Plastic recycling works poorly when all conditions are met. Even ideally, most "recycled" plastic doesn't get recycled. What does is of much lower grade and unsuitable for many applications - and can't really be recycled again.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such measures and plastic pollution in the world would fall an order of magnitude. Yeah, that's exactly what we need but the politicians in the US and EU are too well greased and too vested in the valuation of these mega corporations because the ugly truth is these companies provide a lot of money and jobs in their home countries and regulating the amount of waste and environmental damage they can do globally (in poorer less regulated countries) would reduce the money and jobs they bring in their home countries.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago

> all you need is for the EU bloc and the US to implement such measures and plastic pollution in the world would fall an order of magnitude Hahahaha wow, who would have thought it was that easy? Also, politicians do nothing about a problem not because they are spineless (about losing popularity, I think, is what you mean), but because they gain something out of not doing a thing about the problem. Many of the poor countries cited in the article might be democracies, but they are weak democracies with regulatory capture of private enterprises.