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If I read this correctly, it seems an oddly positive spin on what should actually be referred to as the "Men are awful" effect. > The authors supposed that the
by lucideer 4y ago
If I read this correctly, it seems an oddly positive spin on what should actually be referred to as the "Men are awful" effect.
> The authors supposed that the positive general evaluation of women might derive from the association between women and nurturing characteristics. This bias has been cited as an example of benevolent sexism.
Seems an unusually baseless conclusion when in the actual research:
> a task was done to discover whether people associate pleasant words (good, happy, and sunshine) with women, and unpleasant words (bad, trouble, and pain) with men
(conclusions from the study seem to focus on the former positive indicators and ignore the latter negative indicators?)
> men lack a mechanism that bolsters automatic preference for their own gender
I wonder why that might be?
> Other experiments in this study found people [...] associated the male gender with violence or aggression
> Rudman and Goodwin's suggested that [...] male intimidation influences gender attitudes.
I've clipped the positive attitude findings in the above quotes which seems like cherry picking but I'm not trying to negate the findings of positive attitudes toward women. Just pointing out that the clear findings around negative attitudes seem omitted from the conclusion.
The following quote is the clearest example:
> mediation comes not from differences in attitudes towards women, but in attitudes towards men. In more egalitarian societies, people have more positive attitudes towards men than in less egalitarian societies
- ajuc 4y agoYep. And calling it "benevolent sexism" is absurd. By that same logic the bias that "men are smarter than women" is benevolent sexism.
- denton-scratch 4y ago"That's right, the women are smarter, the women are smarter, that's right, that's right."
- falcolas 4y agoAttribution? The writing style seems interesting enough to follow up on.
- dangerlibrary 4y agohttps://genius.com/The-grateful-dead-women-are-smarter-lyrics https://genius.com/The-grateful-dead-women-are-smarter-lyric...
- falcolas 4y agoNot a song I'm familiar with. Thanks!
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y agoHere's the actual attribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Smart_(Woman_Smarter) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Smart_(Woman_Smarter) Look, I love the Dead, but this is a classic calypso tune. I prefer Harry Belefinte's rendition.
- dangerlibrary 4y agoTIL. I just googled the phrase in quotes - didn't actually know the song.
- calysouser 4y agoIt's actually an old calypso song the dead covered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Smart_(Woman_Smarter) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Smart_(Woman_Smarter) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAHfo49iN1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAHfo49iN1w
- denton-scratch 4y agoMan Smart, Woman Smarter was Harry Belafonte. I came across the song through the Grateful Dead.
- nilkn 4y agoIndeed, use of the phrase "benevolent sexism" for this is in fact an example of "benevolent sexism" (because nobody would use that phrase to refer to sexism in favor of men).
- topaz0 4y agoAs has been pointed out elsewhere, benevolent sexism is a technical term in the field, and is just as applicable to situations where positive traits are assigned to men as it is when positive traits are assigned to women. It has nothing to do with judging about the moral status of the sexism.
- Veen 4y agoBut it doesn't apply where negative traits are assigned to men, which is what this study partially shows.
- nilkn 4y ago> [it] is just as applicable to situations where positive traits are assigned to men as it is when positive traits are assigned to women Can you point out some examples of such usage for men? Any paper I've found so far defines it specifically in terms of women.
- Goronmon 4y agoYep. And calling it "benevolent sexism" is absurd. By that same logic the bias that "men are smarter than women" is benevolent sexism. I don't see the logic there. The "benevolent sexism" is in regards to equating women with "nurturing" characteristics (in this specific case, that's not the only example). My poor understanding of the subject is that the problem is that you are then saying that woman need to be nurturing or they are failing somehow or not meeting expectations, whereas you might not place the same expectation on a man. And that this expectation should guide the roles and opportunities women receive. But it isn't used as a put down against men, just that people don't have the same expectation that men need to be nurturing. The stance "men are smarter than women" is just plain old sexism since the statement can easily be written as "women are dumber than men".
- ajuc 4y agoWould you interpret "men are smarter than women" as a stereotype harmful to men because it sets them higher standards? > The stance "men are smarter than women" is just plain old sexism since the statement can easily be written as "women are dumber than men". Let me rewrite 'equating women with "nurturing" characteristics' into "women are more caring than men". Or alternatively "men are less caring than women". Do you see the problem now?
- Goronmon 4y agoLet me rewrite 'equating women with "nurturing" characteristics' into "women are more caring than men". Or alternatively "men are less caring than women". Do you see the problem now? I would say you are adding information that wasn't stated, and you are also missing the important part of the issue. Which is types of issues that result from stances like "women are nurturing". Such as removing woman from consideration from management positions because you feel that their "nurturing" nature would make them unable to make decisions like firing people or taking a stance that is unpopular with their subordinates. And honestly, I'm going to be blunt here. I feel like people are reacting defensively to the surface level words rather than what the words actually mean.
- inanutshellus 4y ago
- cochne 4y agoYes, the association of men with intelligence more often than women would be benevolent sexism. I don't understand the issue you have with the terminology. Benevolent doesn't mean morally good here, it just means the person exhibiting the bias is assigning a positive attribute rather than negative. On the other hand, "women are dumber than men" would be hostile sexism. Yes, they are just different ways of saying the same thing, but they are framed differently.
- Veen 4y agoThe problem is that the results of this study aren't benevolent from the perspective of men.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago> Benevolent doesn't mean morally good here, it just means the person exhibiting the bias is assigning a positive attribute rather than negative. It's just like the concept of positive punishment. You can have positive punishment by adding a consequence (ie. an electric shock) and negative punishment by removing but it's still punishment despite being labelled "positive".
- Retric 4y agoWhat’s the actual difference between believing women are more X vs men are more !X? Presumably someone would believe one believes the other, and one of those is going to be a positive trait if the other is negative.
- cochne 4y agoAs I said in my comment, they are more or less equivalent as statements of fact, but different in how the fact is framed. Framing, or the context in which you state a fact, matters.
- Retric 4y agoI don’t see how framing a belief matters. People will interchangeably flip the context simply based on the subject.
- tchaffee 4y agoCalling it "benevolent sexism" is using a technical term you seem to be unfamiliar with. Benevolent sexism towards women is considered harmful to women and equality. Likewise attributing something overly positive to men would be considered harmful to men. > By that same logic the bias that "men are smarter than women" is benevolent sexism. Yes. Exactly. That's not the gotcha you think it is. You can educate yourself on what the term means here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalent_sexism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalent_sexism
- ta8903 4y agoI didn't know that was a technical term. I guess my views on race are benevolent racism.
- soganess 4y agoThis issue with "men are smarter than women" as a form of benevolent prejudice stems from the fact that there are largely only two bio-sexes (vs. genders). That, plus the explicit relative value judgment, makes it clear who the "loser" of the statement is. This is different from the phrase "Armenians are good at Chess." Many peoples exist worldwide, so there is no de-facto loser or relative judgment. Those confounding issues don't somehow make the statement less of a form of benevolent prejudice toward men. It is just that the statement is also clearly prejudicial toward women. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago> > men lack a mechanism that bolsters automatic preference for their own gender > I wonder why that might be? Familiarity breeds contempt?