5 ms·

If they were running ads that said, "Hey we sort of have the money we need to keep doing this for a while, but you can give us some more money if you want to he

by cxr 4y ago

If they were running ads that said, "Hey we sort of have the money we need to keep doing this for a while, but you can give us some more money if you want to help", then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Wikipedia's current ads are both misleading and more intrusive than ever. 550 employees is huge, especially for an organization that doesn't even pay those employees to create and edit the content on the site. It's so far away from "on the edge of pauper" that the point you're making—even if true for other, non-Wikimedia realms—is completely irrelevant here.

shadowgovt 4y ago
If they were running ads like that, they wouldn't make any money. The psychology of fundraising is extremely well researched.
- cxr 4y ago
  > If they were running ads like that, they wouldn't make any money. Bullshit. To repeat: the ads today are more misleading and more intrusive than ever. In years past there were ads that were unlike the ones used today. (People complained about them, but I was not among them.) Those ads were successful. There's no evidence to argue that they wouldn't be successful today, too.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    There is plenty of evidence, in the form of the hockey-sticking donation revenue for the organization, that whatever they're doing now works better than what they were doing in the past. As I said, hacker ethos of biasing in favor of the scrappy underdog. It was fine to fundraise when they were small and their strategy was unproven, but as they grow and their strategy is demonstrated as effective, they lose our favor. ETA: speaking of human psychology... It's an election cycle in the US. It's interesting that this story, the facts of which have been known since last year (according to a cursory search of news story dates) is suddenly again making the rounds right now. May be simple coincidence.
    - akolbe 4y ago
      In part this is a cumulative effect. People are invited to set up a recurring donation, or include the Wikimedia Foundation in their will, so naturally there is a growing base level of steady income each year, with first-time donors on top of that. The reason the story is coming up now is that the Wikimedia Foundation is currently "testing" the fundraising banners, in time for the big annual fundraising campaign in December. So at present, a certain percentage of Wikipedia readers in major English-speaking countries are shown the fundraising banners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)#Wikimedia_Foundation_English_fundraising_campaign_-_October_pre-tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)#W...
    - cxr 4y ago
      > There is plenty of evidence[...] that whatever they're doing now works better than what they were doing in the past. You just moved the goalposts. (In this case, moved them such that your "argument" is just restating the substance of the complaint.) Wikimedia is bringing in a lot more money doing this sort of thing. That's well understood—by all, i.e., those on both sides of the issue. Your job is not to defend the position that the aggressive ads bring in more donations, but that if they weren't using them then "they wouldn't make _any_ money". Please leave dishonest sleights of hand at the door.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        I thought "any" would be understood to be rhetorical exaggeration; my apologies. My actual position I've posited is an org loses support of the hacker community when it becomes successful even if nothing about what it's doing fundamentally changes. If their ads are different now, it's because they refined their approach; the goal was always to get people to give them money to be used as they saw fit.
        akolbe 4y ago
        The banners have become more intrusive and obnoxious as the organisation has become richer. Ten years ago, they were quite mild by comparison. You wouldn't get ten reminders, the banners didn't cover your entire screen, and they didn't beseech you not to scroll away. A couple of years ago a Wikimedia Foundation fundraising report explained why that "Don't scroll away" phrase was added: ------------ “Don’t Scroll Away” A simple, yet effective phrase that we were surprised to see resonate with readers worldwide was simply asking readers not to “scroll away” from or “scroll past” the fundraising message in the banner. We believe that addressing the context in which people donate helps improve the donation rate. ------------ Quoted from this report: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2019-20_Report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2019-20_Report
- concordDance 4y ago
  They can start running the ads again once they only have enough cash to keep wikipedia running for the next five years rather than 35 years then.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Why leave donor money on the table for the ExxonMobil Foundations of the world to pick up?
    - concordDance 4y ago
      These are charitable donations. That money wouldn't have gone to ExxonMobil et al, it would instead go to thinks like the Against Malaria Foundation.
- viridian 4y ago
  They can keep lying and misleading people if they want, and they will get money from people who are okay with being lied to and misled. If they want the money and respect of people who place an incredibly high value on truth (like myself), then they need to tell the truth. I will sooner give $20 to someone begging who tells me that he intends on spending it on booze, than I would a well meaning non-profit who attempts to snow me with rhetoric honed on manipulating millions of other people before me.

by cxr 4y ago

shadowgovt 4y ago

If they were running ads like that, they wouldn't make any money. The psychology of fundraising is extremely well researched.

cxr 4y ago
> If they were running ads like that, they wouldn't make any money. Bullshit. To repeat: the ads today are more misleading and more intrusive than ever. In years past there were ads that were unlike the ones used today. (People complained about them, but I was not among them.) Those ads were successful. There's no evidence to argue that they wouldn't be successful today, too.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  There is plenty of evidence, in the form of the hockey-sticking donation revenue for the organization, that whatever they're doing now works better than what they were doing in the past. As I said, hacker ethos of biasing in favor of the scrappy underdog. It was fine to fundraise when they were small and their strategy was unproven, but as they grow and their strategy is demonstrated as effective, they lose our favor. ETA: speaking of human psychology... It's an election cycle in the US. It's interesting that this story, the facts of which have been known since last year (according to a cursory search of news story dates) is suddenly again making the rounds right now. May be simple coincidence.
  - akolbe 4y ago
    In part this is a cumulative effect. People are invited to set up a recurring donation, or include the Wikimedia Foundation in their will, so naturally there is a growing base level of steady income each year, with first-time donors on top of that. The reason the story is coming up now is that the Wikimedia Foundation is currently "testing" the fundraising banners, in time for the big annual fundraising campaign in December. So at present, a certain percentage of Wikipedia readers in major English-speaking countries are shown the fundraising banners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)#Wikimedia_Foundation_English_fundraising_campaign_-_October_pre-tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)#W...
  - cxr 4y ago
    > There is plenty of evidence[...] that whatever they're doing now works better than what they were doing in the past. You just moved the goalposts. (In this case, moved them such that your "argument" is just restating the substance of the complaint.) Wikimedia is bringing in a lot more money doing this sort of thing. That's well understood—by all, i.e., those on both sides of the issue. Your job is not to defend the position that the aggressive ads bring in more donations, but that if they weren't using them then "they wouldn't make _any_ money". Please leave dishonest sleights of hand at the door.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      I thought "any" would be understood to be rhetorical exaggeration; my apologies. My actual position I've posited is an org loses support of the hacker community when it becomes successful even if nothing about what it's doing fundamentally changes. If their ads are different now, it's because they refined their approach; the goal was always to get people to give them money to be used as they saw fit.
      - akolbe 4y ago
        The banners have become more intrusive and obnoxious as the organisation has become richer. Ten years ago, they were quite mild by comparison. You wouldn't get ten reminders, the banners didn't cover your entire screen, and they didn't beseech you not to scroll away. A couple of years ago a Wikimedia Foundation fundraising report explained why that "Don't scroll away" phrase was added: ------------ “Don’t Scroll Away” A simple, yet effective phrase that we were surprised to see resonate with readers worldwide was simply asking readers not to “scroll away” from or “scroll past” the fundraising message in the banner. We believe that addressing the context in which people donate helps improve the donation rate. ------------ Quoted from this report: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2019-20_Report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2019-20_Report
concordDance 4y ago
They can start running the ads again once they only have enough cash to keep wikipedia running for the next five years rather than 35 years then.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Why leave donor money on the table for the ExxonMobil Foundations of the world to pick up?
  - concordDance 4y ago
    These are charitable donations. That money wouldn't have gone to ExxonMobil et al, it would instead go to thinks like the Against Malaria Foundation.
viridian 4y ago
They can keep lying and misleading people if they want, and they will get money from people who are okay with being lied to and misled. If they want the money and respect of people who place an incredibly high value on truth (like myself), then they need to tell the truth. I will sooner give $20 to someone begging who tells me that he intends on spending it on booze, than I would a well meaning non-profit who attempts to snow me with rhetoric honed on manipulating millions of other people before me.