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Single page apps have bastardized the web and reduced consistent usability in so many ways such as your example.

moring 4y ago
Prior to SPAs we had multi-page applications telling the user "don't use the back button or tabs, they break the website". Was that really better?
- yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
  False dichotomy. A poor implementation of a generally sensible approach is not justification to embrace a more complex and error-prone approach.
  - moring 4y ago
    This argument can be used word-by-word in favor of SPAs and against earlier web applications, but it's a No True Scotsman either way.
    - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
      But then you’re making the argument that a SPA is less complex than a more orthodox equivalent, and I don’t think that’s the case.
      - moring 4y ago
        It was definitely the case for most applications I have worked with because they had to perform client-side logic on the server side. Most SPAs I've seen at least have clearly separated responsibilities between the two, AND they don't act as if there wasn't a network in between.
        yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
        > AND they don't act as if there wasn't a network in between …But there is a network in between. I'm not sure why pretending there isn't can somehow make a system less complex. Furthermore, how do you write automated tests for your modals and slide-out panels? Your test suite needs to essentially run a browser. This is absolutely more complex than having an application on the server compute the document that the client expects.
        moring 4y ago
        > But there is a network in between That's exactly my argument...? Seems to be a misunderstanding. > I'm not sure why pretending there isn't can somehow make a system less complex. Yes, that is exactly why pre-SPA web programming was more complex. > Furthermore, how do you write automated tests for your modals and slide-out panels? Your test suite needs to essentially run a browser. This is absolutely more complex than having an application on the server compute the document that the client expects. How do you test that the HTML/JS generated by the server actually show a modal? At least with libraries like React you can test everything up to the actual CSS engine. And no, you don't need a browser for that.
        yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
        I don't think either of us are going to convince the other. I've built large, complex systems with both approaches, and I'm assuming you have too. > How do you test that the HTML/JS generated by the server actually show a modal? You can test for the existence of markup on page load. You can't test that some JavaScript for displaying a modal has run without running a JavaScript runtime, i.e., a [headless] browser. In most cases, just loading a page which displays the appropriate information for the user is cheaper to test and implement, and usually is a better experience for the user also. It depends of course — this would not be true of an application like Google Maps. Most web applications aren't Google Maps though.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Not all websites got it wrong. They are both a problem but one does not excuse the other in regards to ignoring the way the web spec works.
  - moring 4y ago
    Not all SPAs do it wrong either, that's my point. Caring about the user is orthogonal to the technology used.
    - notyourwork 4y ago
      Most SPAs get it wrong because it’s complex to make work well in a single page framework. It’s nearly impossible to get wrong with a traditional webpage.

Prior to SPAs we had multi-page applications telling the user "don't use the back button or tabs, they break the website". Was that really better?

yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
False dichotomy. A poor implementation of a generally sensible approach is not justification to embrace a more complex and error-prone approach.
- moring 4y ago
  This argument can be used word-by-word in favor of SPAs and against earlier web applications, but it's a No True Scotsman either way.
  - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
    But then you’re making the argument that a SPA is less complex than a more orthodox equivalent, and I don’t think that’s the case.
    - moring 4y ago
      It was definitely the case for most applications I have worked with because they had to perform client-side logic on the server side. Most SPAs I've seen at least have clearly separated responsibilities between the two, AND they don't act as if there wasn't a network in between.
      - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
        > AND they don't act as if there wasn't a network in between …But there is a network in between. I'm not sure why pretending there isn't can somehow make a system less complex. Furthermore, how do you write automated tests for your modals and slide-out panels? Your test suite needs to essentially run a browser. This is absolutely more complex than having an application on the server compute the document that the client expects.
        moring 4y ago
        > But there is a network in between That's exactly my argument...? Seems to be a misunderstanding. > I'm not sure why pretending there isn't can somehow make a system less complex. Yes, that is exactly why pre-SPA web programming was more complex. > Furthermore, how do you write automated tests for your modals and slide-out panels? Your test suite needs to essentially run a browser. This is absolutely more complex than having an application on the server compute the document that the client expects. How do you test that the HTML/JS generated by the server actually show a modal? At least with libraries like React you can test everything up to the actual CSS engine. And no, you don't need a browser for that.
        yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
        I don't think either of us are going to convince the other. I've built large, complex systems with both approaches, and I'm assuming you have too. > How do you test that the HTML/JS generated by the server actually show a modal? You can test for the existence of markup on page load. You can't test that some JavaScript for displaying a modal has run without running a JavaScript runtime, i.e., a [headless] browser. In most cases, just loading a page which displays the appropriate information for the user is cheaper to test and implement, and usually is a better experience for the user also. It depends of course — this would not be true of an application like Google Maps. Most web applications aren't Google Maps though.
notyourwork 4y ago
Not all websites got it wrong. They are both a problem but one does not excuse the other in regards to ignoring the way the web spec works.
- moring 4y ago
  Not all SPAs do it wrong either, that's my point. Caring about the user is orthogonal to the technology used.
  - notyourwork 4y ago
    Most SPAs get it wrong because it’s complex to make work well in a single page framework. It’s nearly impossible to get wrong with a traditional webpage.