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Nursing only requires a 2 year degree in the US and hardly any ongoing training apart from paid training provided by the hospital. There might be some additiona

by jcoq 4y ago

Nursing only requires a 2 year degree in the US and hardly any ongoing training apart from paid training provided by the hospital. There might be some additional certifications for certain fields, but that's it. Most nurses are paid hourly, so the "long hours" is a moot point. My nurse friends all make around 100,000 per year after overtime, which they're eager to get. The average full time salary without overtime is ~80,000. For a 2 year degree, this is very decent money in most states and I think we'd struggle to name a career with such low education requirements and high salary. I really appreciate the work of medical professionals and don't want to belittle their work. But I think nursing does standout as a counterexample to the point you're making. Neither of your links mention nursing.

linuxftw 4y ago
Nurses I know with 4 year degrees are making less than $30/hr.
- tchaffee 4y ago
  Considering the median hourly pay in 2021 was $37.31, this is easily believable and probably quite common. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab-1 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab...
tchaffee 4y ago
> Nursing only requires a 2 year degree It also requires passing a licensing test. Passing the licensing test requires self-study. You need to include this time in the training requirements for the profession. Most jobs do not require a licensing test. So when comparing you need to find similar jobs with 2 year degree + licensing requirements. > The average full time salary without overtime is ~80,000. That's exaggerated. The median pay is $77,600. Or a better measure is the $37.31 per hour. That is not a high hourly rate by any measure. [1] > I think we'd struggle to name a career with such low education requirements and high salary. No we wouldn't. Large numbers of programmers don't even have a degree - it's not required for sure - and earn way more than nurses. Licensing is not required. Mandatory overtime is not rampant. Programming being a male dominated field. > Most nurses are paid hourly, so the "long hours" is a moot point. It's not moot at all. In many cases it is a job requirement, not optional. NY for example only passed a law in 2009 making mandatory overtime illegal for nurses. It was so rampant that states have passed laws about it. That makes the career far harder than most jobs where overtime is often optional. And to date, only 18 states have laws against mandatory overtime for nurses. > Neither of your links mention nursing. That's wrong. The 1st link shows a chart with a comparison of careers with similar training and the chart shows nursing in that comparison. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab-1 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab...
- rendang 4y ago
  The cognitive ability required to be an RN is nowhere near that required for programming, degree or no.
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    This source shows the IQ range of nurses and computer programmers as very similar. With programmers going both slightly lower and slightly higher than nurses. Meaning there are no nurses that have as low an IQ as the lowest IQ programmer. Proving your claim definitely wrong. https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf The jobs require different types of cognitive ability and I'd guess the average programmer would fail miserably at being a nurse due to not having the right type of cognitive ability.
    - rendang 4y ago
      I'm pretty skeptical - that's 30 year old data and I doubt the programmer category corresponds closely with the profession today. What kind of intellectual capacity would the average programmer lack compared to an RN? Physical/energy/personality demands I could see being a barrier, but not cognition.
      - tchaffee 4y ago
        > I'm pretty skeptical Feel free to provide an better source. You made a claim that looked like a bad guess and it was pretty easy to find a source showing that you were wrong. What data is your claim based on? > What kind of intellectual capacity would the average programmer lack compared to an RN? The ability to pick up on social queues for example. The cognitive ability to recognize when logic isn't appropriate and empathy is more appropriate. The cognitive ability to read between the lines about what someone is really saying about what they need instead of taking their requirements literally. Software developers are nearly four times more likely to have autism than the general population. So you could start there. To be clear, I'm not saying all programmers or even the majority of programmers are bad at all of the above. But claiming that it's all raw IQ and there is no difference in cognitive skills between jobs is disingenuous. I certainly don't want a math genius with poor proprioception as my nurse. > that's 30 year old data and I doubt the programmer category corresponds closely with the profession today. As someone who has been programming for more than 30 years, I can assure you that you are wrong about that guess. In fact there are so many more programmers today and the demand is so high, that it would be a far safer bet that the low end of the IQ range is lower today. At bigger companies especially, some programmers barely contribute and still manage to keep their job for years.

by jcoq 4y ago

linuxftw 4y ago

Nurses I know with 4 year degrees are making less than $30/hr.

tchaffee 4y ago
Considering the median hourly pay in 2021 was $37.31, this is easily believable and probably quite common. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab-1 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab...

tchaffee 4y ago

> Nursing only requires a 2 year degree It also requires passing a licensing test. Passing the licensing test requires self-study. You need to include this time in the training requirements for the profession. Most jobs do not require a licensing test. So when comparing you need to find similar jobs with 2 year degree + licensing requirements. > The average full time salary without overtime is ~80,000. That's exaggerated. The median pay is $77,600. Or a better measure is the $37.31 per hour. That is not a high hourly rate by any measure. [1] > I think we'd struggle to name a career with such low education requirements and high salary. No we wouldn't. Large numbers of programmers don't even have a degree - it's not required for sure - and earn way more than nurses. Licensing is not required. Mandatory overtime is not rampant. Programming being a male dominated field. > Most nurses are paid hourly, so the "long hours" is a moot point. It's not moot at all. In many cases it is a job requirement, not optional. NY for example only passed a law in 2009 making mandatory overtime illegal for nurses. It was so rampant that states have passed laws about it. That makes the career far harder than most jobs where overtime is often optional. And to date, only 18 states have laws against mandatory overtime for nurses. > Neither of your links mention nursing. That's wrong. The 1st link shows a chart with a comparison of careers with similar training and the chart shows nursing in that comparison. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab-1 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#tab...

rendang 4y ago
The cognitive ability required to be an RN is nowhere near that required for programming, degree or no.
- tchaffee 4y ago
  This source shows the IQ range of nurses and computer programmers as very similar. With programmers going both slightly lower and slightly higher than nurses. Meaning there are no nurses that have as low an IQ as the lowest IQ programmer. Proving your claim definitely wrong. https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf The jobs require different types of cognitive ability and I'd guess the average programmer would fail miserably at being a nurse due to not having the right type of cognitive ability.
  - rendang 4y ago
    I'm pretty skeptical - that's 30 year old data and I doubt the programmer category corresponds closely with the profession today. What kind of intellectual capacity would the average programmer lack compared to an RN? Physical/energy/personality demands I could see being a barrier, but not cognition.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      > I'm pretty skeptical Feel free to provide an better source. You made a claim that looked like a bad guess and it was pretty easy to find a source showing that you were wrong. What data is your claim based on? > What kind of intellectual capacity would the average programmer lack compared to an RN? The ability to pick up on social queues for example. The cognitive ability to recognize when logic isn't appropriate and empathy is more appropriate. The cognitive ability to read between the lines about what someone is really saying about what they need instead of taking their requirements literally. Software developers are nearly four times more likely to have autism than the general population. So you could start there. To be clear, I'm not saying all programmers or even the majority of programmers are bad at all of the above. But claiming that it's all raw IQ and there is no difference in cognitive skills between jobs is disingenuous. I certainly don't want a math genius with poor proprioception as my nurse. > that's 30 year old data and I doubt the programmer category corresponds closely with the profession today. As someone who has been programming for more than 30 years, I can assure you that you are wrong about that guess. In fact there are so many more programmers today and the demand is so high, that it would be a far safer bet that the low end of the IQ range is lower today. At bigger companies especially, some programmers barely contribute and still manage to keep their job for years.