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There are a lot of people pooh-poohing this who haven't tried a meeting in Workrooms. I was skeptical going in, even as a VR early adopter, and it exceeded my e

There are a lot of people pooh-poohing this who haven't tried a meeting in Workrooms. I was skeptical going in, even as a VR early adopter, and it exceeded my expectations by a long way. It feels a whole lot more like a real meeting than a Zoom call does. I don't know if it's enough better for me to choose it over Zoom in everyday use, but this was on Quest 2. A meeting where everyone is wearing Quest Pro will be significantly better. I expect that the combination of the better screen/lenses, better comfort, much better AR passthrough, and of course the new eye/face tracking will make for a very compelling experience.

sneak 4y ago
Is agreeing to the third party abusive Meta/Facebook TOS going to be a requirement of employment with third parties then? Will users be permitted to create accounts only for work? If not, when your personal account gets banned or disabled, will you be unable to work?
- modeless 4y ago
  The Facebook login requirement is gone. If you are banned from Facebook you can use Quest, no problem. Yes, you can create a separate work account. In fact, Workplace accounts are separate already.
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    This is what kept me from trying Quest despite being a VR superfan. Once they finally announced the account change I took the plunge and picked one up I just didn't want to risk losing hundreds of dollars' worth of games because Facebook's retarded algorithms decided they don't like some meme I posted years ago. (Actually, Facebook's moderation has kept me from using it for anything other than posting family photos and clicking the "like" button on others' photos.. it's just too risky that I'll cross a line and get deleted)
  - numpad0 4y ago
    I’ve heard they still maintain real name basis for the Meta login requirement though…
    - Youden 4y ago
      My Meta account doesn't have my real name and I don't recall anything requesting I add it.
      - sneak 4y ago
        Do something to get it in trouble and see if you can get back in without showing ID.
    - agar 4y ago
      That is incorrect. From https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/#:~:text=Email%3A%20You%20can%20only%20create,but%20it%20is%20not%20required https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/#:~:t.... > Email: You can only create one Meta account per email address. First and last name: We recommend using your real name in case you need to recover your account or manage your store purchases, but it is not required.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Is this a general change? My Rift was nice but it has been gathering dust since that change, it would be cool to hear they've relented.
    - agar 4y ago
      Yes it is a general change. A Facebook account is no longer needed to use VR. You can link a Facebook account if you so choose, but even then a ban on Facebook has no effect on your access to VR. If you have an old Oculus account, it can be converted directly into a Meta account. See https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/ https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/ and https://www.oculus.com/blog/getting-started-with-meta-accounts/ https://www.oculus.com/blog/getting-started-with-meta-accoun.... Note that it will be far easier to convert your Oculus account before 1 January 2023.
hiq 4y ago
> It feels a whole lot more like a real meeting than a Zoom call does. I haven't had the chance to try it myself, so can you explain how it's better? I feel like the main problem with remote meetings is the audio latency. You cannot speak as you would naturally, you'd speak in turn instead. I'm guessing VR allows you to give and receive visual cues about this so it might be better, is this what you had in mind?
- modeless 4y ago
  The audio latency is better. You're not sending or receiving HD video so your connection is less loaded and the audio doesn't ever have to be delayed to synchronize with video. And VR devices are better optimized for low latency than your average system. Visual cues for turn taking while speaking work better, as you mentioned. Spatial audio is awesome for locating speakers and differentiating multiple speakers at once. Hand gestures work better; you can actually point at things in a shared 3D space.
  - nwienert 4y ago
    People just won’t put on world-occluding headsets to talk to cartoons, end of the day. Only in bubble-land does this pass the smell test imo.
    - mooreds 4y ago
      I remember swearing up and down that I didn't need a phone I could carry everywhere with me. This was in the late 1990s/early 2000s. What communication was so important that it couldn't wait until I was home, next to my land line and answering machine?
      - nwienert 4y ago
        Phones work because they are so simple, unobtrusive and easy to position and use contextually. They are the argument against VR.
mbreese 4y ago
> enough better for me to choose it over Zoom in everyday use It doesn’t have to be better than Zoom. It has to be $1500 better than Zoom. Per employee. I’m in agreement with you — I like Immersed and I like the idea of VR meetings. But will people/employers opt for this over a hybrid on-site/remote system? How do VR meetings work when half the team is onsite in a conference zoom? I don’t want to put on a VR a headset to talk to the coworker sitting physically next to me in a conference room. Sadly, I see this as useful only for remote-only teams. As one of a handful of remote people on my team, it doesn’t seem like a workable option, even if I already like/use VR.
- zachthewf 4y ago
  $1500 is nothing if it makes remote collaboration competitive with IRL collaboration.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    But how often do you have exclusively remote collaboration? I’m sure for many people that is common. It’s not for me. Normally I’m talking with a few people remote in zoom and the rest of the team on site in a conference room. For remote exclusive groups, this makes sense. But does it make sense for businesses to buy this for all of their employees — if they have a hybrid workforce? I would expect most employers will or are shifting towards a hybrid setup. How many remote-only employers are there? Is it enough of a market to make this more than a gimmick? I get VR for personal use. I get it for one-to-one communication. But I’m skeptical for business communication.
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - deleted 4y ago
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    - girvo 4y ago
      I work at a place that technically has an office, but 99% of the time only a single person is in it during the week, and 80% of my team now lives across the world (they started here in Aus but moved) -- we're as close to "remote only" as you can get, but my boss and I had a laugh at the Quest Pro (despite us both being VR users!) today when it was announced. Even for remote-only work, it's just not there yet, and not at $2500 AUD per device. Maybe if the next version has a much higher resolution for better text rendering on N virtual screens, so they can have dual-purpose.
kypro 4y ago
I tried out Horizon Worlds recently and I was honestly amazed by how immersive it was. I genuinely felt like I was out socialising with people while sat at home. I can definitely see the use cases, especially as the technology improves. If there were live VR music events that me and my friends in different cities and countries could all attend to feel together I imagine I'd use it quite often.
- gernb 4y ago
  Aren't there several companies that do that ? Maybe https://wavexr.com/ https://wavexr.com/ for example?
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  This comment reminds me my first times in geocities chatrooms, talking with people all over the world. Welcome to the future.
- exodust 4y ago
  > live VR music events How does that work? Do you mean the band members are avatars too? Or are you talking about a DJ pressing play, and you're in VR space with your friends basically listening to a playlist? Or are you in a VR cinema with your friends, watching a live stream of a real band?
  - throwaway4aday 4y ago
    It's done a few different ways, I don't think the perfect solution has been found yet. DJs or bands have performed as avatars by using full body tracking. More commonly, the performer will have a camera on them and the video is displayed on a screen in the VR event. They can also see what's happening in the event so it's possible for them to interact with the crowd. As headsets become lighter and more comfortable and FBT gets easier with inside out camera tracking or better trackers; performing as an avatar will become more common. The events are usually in environments that look like clubs or concert halls.
beams_of_light 4y ago
I've been reluctant to try getting my coworkers into VR because they'd probably just laugh at me, but a couple of friends and I met up in VR (we're all fully-grown professionals) and it was great. Meetings in VR would be a lot more productive, IMO.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  Never tried it, Can you see the micro expressions on your audience faces? Can you draw on a whiteboard with fidelity similar to that of RL chalkboard? Can I take notes?
  - strix_varius 4y ago
    > Can you see the micro expressions on your audience faces? No, but you get an amazing amount of context from their body language > Can you draw on a whiteboard with fidelity similar to that of RL chalkboard? Yes > Can I take notes? I never tried this, but I can imagine several ways to do so (the simplest of which is to just record the meeting & the contents of the whiteboard).
bsimpson 4y ago
The idea of being painted as a literal second class citizen if you have lower end hardware is gross, but it's also the natural destination of progressive enhancement if e.g. facial expressions only work with the expensive thing.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  Snow Crash is getting closer and closer it seems, the distinction between the rich folks with their outrageous avatars in the inner city and the plebeians who access the 'net through some public terminal which provides them with a nondescript black-and-white avatar - which is not allowed to enter the inner city - is a clear feature of its world.
  - hankman86 4y ago
    It’s the other way around. Wealthy people can opt out of Meta’s VR surveillance apparatus, others cannot.
- modeless 4y ago
  Many if not most things in life can be improved by spending more money, in ways that give you practical and social advantages. It's not as if VR is unique in that respect.
- King-Aaron 4y ago
  > The idea of being painted as a literal second class citizen if you have lower end hardware is gross This is true for cars, houses, PC gamers, console gamers, mechanics, chefs, etc etc etc
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    On the Internet, by default, I have no idea how nice your car, house, computer, or food is. We're talking on a website that would comfortably load on 1990s hardware. Meta is just one small corner of this and as such doesn't perhaps deserve particular blame, but it's sad to think about how we've slowly eroded the Internet's fundamentally democratic, equalizing nature.
magic_hamster 4y ago
The main reason I don't see it working for meetings is because it's relatively a hassle to put it on and going into meetings I want everything to happen fast and painless. Every delay or extra step is to be avoided. Sometimes you have a series of back to back meetings where things really need to work fast. Besides, haven't tried the Pro but everything else I did try isn't there in terms of comfort. A lot of people wear glasses and it's just a bad experience for them. The last point that seems to be unaccounted for is the flexibility of current voice meetings. You can connect from almost any device anywhere. You can join a meeting from your car. I somehow sense that's going to be a tad problematic with a VR headset.
- Osmose 4y ago
  Exactly, people show up 5-10 minutes late to meetings where they have to click a single button to join, and we expect them to hook in to a VR setup before joining?
  - exodust 4y ago
    Not to mention that "too many meetings" is a thing many of us complain about. Just because they might be "VR meetings" doesn't take away the feeling that you're having too many meetings.
- modeless 4y ago
  Quest Pro actually addresses those concerns. The head mount style is miles easier than the Quest 2 strap; it looks much more like PSVR if you've tried that. Putting on PSVR feels more like putting on a hat. It rests more on top of your head and doesn't smash your face. In fact, unlike other VR headsets it looks like Quest Pro doesn't contact your face at all, and leaves plenty of room for glasses. There's no charging cable to plug/unplug, no external tracker, and you don't need the controllers for meetings, so the headset is entirely self-contained. It could literally be as simple as five seconds to pick the headset up off your desk and put it on like a hat and it turns on automatically and you're in. Of course the ultimate idea is you'll be doing your regular work on virtual screens in VR, so you won't even need to don/doff the headset. But I think comfort and battery life and screen resolution will need to improve further for that to be realistic for most people. As for flexibility, Workrooms supports standard video calling just fine. You can join from your laptop or phone and still participate. To the VR participants you appear on a large projection screen, and you see the VR participants using a virtual meeting room camera. So you lose nothing in terms of flexibility.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
$1800 to ram the concept of physical meetings remotely instead of adapting to the benefits of remote work is a comically steep price that only SV tech bros will consider. Even the NYC finance people blowing that weekly on cocaïne will laugh their asses off at the idea.

sneak 4y ago

Is agreeing to the third party abusive Meta/Facebook TOS going to be a requirement of employment with third parties then? Will users be permitted to create accounts only for work? If not, when your personal account gets banned or disabled, will you be unable to work?

modeless 4y ago
The Facebook login requirement is gone. If you are banned from Facebook you can use Quest, no problem. Yes, you can create a separate work account. In fact, Workplace accounts are separate already.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  This is what kept me from trying Quest despite being a VR superfan. Once they finally announced the account change I took the plunge and picked one up I just didn't want to risk losing hundreds of dollars' worth of games because Facebook's retarded algorithms decided they don't like some meme I posted years ago. (Actually, Facebook's moderation has kept me from using it for anything other than posting family photos and clicking the "like" button on others' photos.. it's just too risky that I'll cross a line and get deleted)
- numpad0 4y ago
  I’ve heard they still maintain real name basis for the Meta login requirement though…
  - Youden 4y ago
    My Meta account doesn't have my real name and I don't recall anything requesting I add it.
    - sneak 4y ago
      Do something to get it in trouble and see if you can get back in without showing ID.
  - agar 4y ago
    That is incorrect. From https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/#:~:text=Email%3A%20You%20can%20only%20create,but%20it%20is%20not%20required https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/#:~:t.... > Email: You can only create one Meta account per email address. First and last name: We recommend using your real name in case you need to recover your account or manage your store purchases, but it is not required.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Is this a general change? My Rift was nice but it has been gathering dust since that change, it would be cool to hear they've relented.
  - agar 4y ago
    Yes it is a general change. A Facebook account is no longer needed to use VR. You can link a Facebook account if you so choose, but even then a ban on Facebook has no effect on your access to VR. If you have an old Oculus account, it can be converted directly into a Meta account. See https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/ https://www.meta.com/help/accounts/set-up-meta-account/ and https://www.oculus.com/blog/getting-started-with-meta-accounts/ https://www.oculus.com/blog/getting-started-with-meta-accoun.... Note that it will be far easier to convert your Oculus account before 1 January 2023.

hiq 4y ago

> It feels a whole lot more like a real meeting than a Zoom call does. I haven't had the chance to try it myself, so can you explain how it's better? I feel like the main problem with remote meetings is the audio latency. You cannot speak as you would naturally, you'd speak in turn instead. I'm guessing VR allows you to give and receive visual cues about this so it might be better, is this what you had in mind?

modeless 4y ago
The audio latency is better. You're not sending or receiving HD video so your connection is less loaded and the audio doesn't ever have to be delayed to synchronize with video. And VR devices are better optimized for low latency than your average system. Visual cues for turn taking while speaking work better, as you mentioned. Spatial audio is awesome for locating speakers and differentiating multiple speakers at once. Hand gestures work better; you can actually point at things in a shared 3D space.
- nwienert 4y ago
  People just won’t put on world-occluding headsets to talk to cartoons, end of the day. Only in bubble-land does this pass the smell test imo.
  - mooreds 4y ago
    I remember swearing up and down that I didn't need a phone I could carry everywhere with me. This was in the late 1990s/early 2000s. What communication was so important that it couldn't wait until I was home, next to my land line and answering machine?
    - nwienert 4y ago
      Phones work because they are so simple, unobtrusive and easy to position and use contextually. They are the argument against VR.

mbreese 4y ago

> enough better for me to choose it over Zoom in everyday use It doesn’t have to be better than Zoom. It has to be $1500 better than Zoom. Per employee. I’m in agreement with you — I like Immersed and I like the idea of VR meetings. But will people/employers opt for this over a hybrid on-site/remote system? How do VR meetings work when half the team is onsite in a conference zoom? I don’t want to put on a VR a headset to talk to the coworker sitting physically next to me in a conference room. Sadly, I see this as useful only for remote-only teams. As one of a handful of remote people on my team, it doesn’t seem like a workable option, even if I already like/use VR.

zachthewf 4y ago
$1500 is nothing if it makes remote collaboration competitive with IRL collaboration.
- mbreese 4y ago
  But how often do you have exclusively remote collaboration? I’m sure for many people that is common. It’s not for me. Normally I’m talking with a few people remote in zoom and the rest of the team on site in a conference room. For remote exclusive groups, this makes sense. But does it make sense for businesses to buy this for all of their employees — if they have a hybrid workforce? I would expect most employers will or are shifting towards a hybrid setup. How many remote-only employers are there? Is it enough of a market to make this more than a gimmick? I get VR for personal use. I get it for one-to-one communication. But I’m skeptical for business communication.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - deleted 4y ago
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  - girvo 4y ago
    I work at a place that technically has an office, but 99% of the time only a single person is in it during the week, and 80% of my team now lives across the world (they started here in Aus but moved) -- we're as close to "remote only" as you can get, but my boss and I had a laugh at the Quest Pro (despite us both being VR users!) today when it was announced. Even for remote-only work, it's just not there yet, and not at $2500 AUD per device. Maybe if the next version has a much higher resolution for better text rendering on N virtual screens, so they can have dual-purpose.

kypro 4y ago

I tried out Horizon Worlds recently and I was honestly amazed by how immersive it was. I genuinely felt like I was out socialising with people while sat at home. I can definitely see the use cases, especially as the technology improves. If there were live VR music events that me and my friends in different cities and countries could all attend to feel together I imagine I'd use it quite often.

gernb 4y ago
Aren't there several companies that do that ? Maybe https://wavexr.com/ https://wavexr.com/ for example?
Foobar8568 4y ago
This comment reminds me my first times in geocities chatrooms, talking with people all over the world. Welcome to the future.
exodust 4y ago
> live VR music events How does that work? Do you mean the band members are avatars too? Or are you talking about a DJ pressing play, and you're in VR space with your friends basically listening to a playlist? Or are you in a VR cinema with your friends, watching a live stream of a real band?
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  It's done a few different ways, I don't think the perfect solution has been found yet. DJs or bands have performed as avatars by using full body tracking. More commonly, the performer will have a camera on them and the video is displayed on a screen in the VR event. They can also see what's happening in the event so it's possible for them to interact with the crowd. As headsets become lighter and more comfortable and FBT gets easier with inside out camera tracking or better trackers; performing as an avatar will become more common. The events are usually in environments that look like clubs or concert halls.

beams_of_light 4y ago

I've been reluctant to try getting my coworkers into VR because they'd probably just laugh at me, but a couple of friends and I met up in VR (we're all fully-grown professionals) and it was great. Meetings in VR would be a lot more productive, IMO.

waynesonfire 4y ago
Never tried it, Can you see the micro expressions on your audience faces? Can you draw on a whiteboard with fidelity similar to that of RL chalkboard? Can I take notes?
- strix_varius 4y ago
  > Can you see the micro expressions on your audience faces? No, but you get an amazing amount of context from their body language > Can you draw on a whiteboard with fidelity similar to that of RL chalkboard? Yes > Can I take notes? I never tried this, but I can imagine several ways to do so (the simplest of which is to just record the meeting & the contents of the whiteboard).

bsimpson 4y ago

The idea of being painted as a literal second class citizen if you have lower end hardware is gross, but it's also the natural destination of progressive enhancement if e.g. facial expressions only work with the expensive thing.

the_third_wave 4y ago
Snow Crash is getting closer and closer it seems, the distinction between the rich folks with their outrageous avatars in the inner city and the plebeians who access the 'net through some public terminal which provides them with a nondescript black-and-white avatar - which is not allowed to enter the inner city - is a clear feature of its world.
- hankman86 4y ago
  It’s the other way around. Wealthy people can opt out of Meta’s VR surveillance apparatus, others cannot.
modeless 4y ago
Many if not most things in life can be improved by spending more money, in ways that give you practical and social advantages. It's not as if VR is unique in that respect.
King-Aaron 4y ago
> The idea of being painted as a literal second class citizen if you have lower end hardware is gross This is true for cars, houses, PC gamers, console gamers, mechanics, chefs, etc etc etc
- woodruffw 4y ago
  On the Internet, by default, I have no idea how nice your car, house, computer, or food is. We're talking on a website that would comfortably load on 1990s hardware. Meta is just one small corner of this and as such doesn't perhaps deserve particular blame, but it's sad to think about how we've slowly eroded the Internet's fundamentally democratic, equalizing nature.

magic_hamster 4y ago

The main reason I don't see it working for meetings is because it's relatively a hassle to put it on and going into meetings I want everything to happen fast and painless. Every delay or extra step is to be avoided. Sometimes you have a series of back to back meetings where things really need to work fast. Besides, haven't tried the Pro but everything else I did try isn't there in terms of comfort. A lot of people wear glasses and it's just a bad experience for them. The last point that seems to be unaccounted for is the flexibility of current voice meetings. You can connect from almost any device anywhere. You can join a meeting from your car. I somehow sense that's going to be a tad problematic with a VR headset.

Osmose 4y ago
Exactly, people show up 5-10 minutes late to meetings where they have to click a single button to join, and we expect them to hook in to a VR setup before joining?
- exodust 4y ago
  Not to mention that "too many meetings" is a thing many of us complain about. Just because they might be "VR meetings" doesn't take away the feeling that you're having too many meetings.
modeless 4y ago
Quest Pro actually addresses those concerns. The head mount style is miles easier than the Quest 2 strap; it looks much more like PSVR if you've tried that. Putting on PSVR feels more like putting on a hat. It rests more on top of your head and doesn't smash your face. In fact, unlike other VR headsets it looks like Quest Pro doesn't contact your face at all, and leaves plenty of room for glasses. There's no charging cable to plug/unplug, no external tracker, and you don't need the controllers for meetings, so the headset is entirely self-contained. It could literally be as simple as five seconds to pick the headset up off your desk and put it on like a hat and it turns on automatically and you're in. Of course the ultimate idea is you'll be doing your regular work on virtual screens in VR, so you won't even need to don/doff the headset. But I think comfort and battery life and screen resolution will need to improve further for that to be realistic for most people. As for flexibility, Workrooms supports standard video calling just fine. You can join from your laptop or phone and still participate. To the VR participants you appear on a large projection screen, and you see the VR participants using a virtual meeting room camera. So you lose nothing in terms of flexibility.

ohgodplsno 4y ago

$1800 to ram the concept of physical meetings remotely instead of adapting to the benefits of remote work is a comically steep price that only SV tech bros will consider. Even the NYC finance people blowing that weekly on cocaïne will laugh their asses off at the idea.