3 ms·

Ask HN: Would quickly accepting Russia and Ukraine as NATO members end the war?

• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• impowski 4y ago
  NATO was created to fight against Soviet Union/Russia so I don’t think that this will be a case. Long time ago Putin they’ve asked him about it in the interview and replied that he asked Clinton (I think) and he just laughed. No one knew his plans for a fact but since NATO betrayed him multiple times and growing up in the SU he probably romanticized it a lot which eventually created this situation. If everyone is in NATO who are they gonna be fighting against then?
• tpmx 4y ago
  If Russia returned the annexed lands to Ukraine the war would be over. No need to join NATO (which is a hilarious/insane idea). Just war reparations to deal with. They will be large. Very large. And we will see to it that they are paid in full, with or without Putin as the dictator de jour.
  • amichail 4y ago
    Russia would love to join NATO quickly and returning the annexed lands to Ukraine would be worth it just for that.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • kjs3 4y ago
      Citation needed.
      • amichail 4y ago
        See: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...
        • tpmx 4y ago
          22 years ago Putin said that he would not rule out joining Nato "if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner". I'm sorry, but it really takes a very special kind of eh, person, to interpret this the way you did. Have you at all paid attention to what he has done since?
  • mysecretaccount 4y ago
    I appreciate the sentiment, but the expectation that Russia will pay war reparations in full, at this point, is also hilarious/insane...
    • tpmx 4y ago
      There are many ways for the civilized nations to extract payments (or at the very least, subtract value) from an wannabe superpower that's actually more of a glorified petrol station, especially if we are patient and committed about it. I think we will be.
• rossdavidh 4y ago
  1) one requirement for NATO admission, as I understand it, is that you don't have any active wars going on. 2) while there was one case where Turkey and Greece went to war when they were both NATO members, generally speaking it is a requirement that you don't attack other NATO members. 3) it is expected that all NATO members must be democracies, and while Russia has had elections, and I think arguably was a real democracy in Yeltsin's day, it hasn't had competitive elections in decades. You don't have to be a perfect democracy to be in NATO (otherwise Turkey and arguably the US might not qualify), but you do have to approximately speaking have elections in which the incumbent might possibly lose (true in both Turkey and US today, not true in Russia). 4) What Putin actually wanted was to reassert Russia's dominance over Ukraine, making it somewhat similar to Belorussia in that it would have a separate government, but would not be really independent. The stuff about worries about Russian security was a pretext, kind of like WMD's were the pretext for the US in the Iraq War but not the real primary reason.
  • amichail 4y ago
    Elections could be supervised by the UN to make sure they are fair and that Russia becomes a true democracy.
    • tpmx 4y ago
      Hello again, Vladimir Putin/Elon Musk fan.
      • amichail 4y ago
        These are different elections....
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
    • rossdavidh 4y ago
      If Russia ('s elite led by Putin) were willing to agree to that, they would be willing to agree to much else that they have not agreed to.
• LinuxBender 4y ago
  As rossdavidh mentioned, a country may not join NATO while at war even if one calls it a military operation. If either or both countries joined while at war then all NATO countries would be obligated to join in, thus solidifying a full scale WW3. So I think your question is really how long would it take for WW3 to end and I guess that depends on tactics used. Probably less than a few years and I have no idea whom or what would remain.
  • amichail 4y ago
    The point is that the war would end immediately since both countries want to be part of NATO and Ukraine would get its territory back.
    • LinuxBender 4y ago
      I do get your point and I like the idea in theory but neither country is willing at this point to compromise or give up what they perceive as their territory. They have even stopped pretending to have peace talks. In my opinion the only way peace talks might resume would be for all countries to stop providing resources to Ukraine and Russia.
      • amichail 4y ago
        Quickly joining NATO for Russia was never considered in these talks.
• kjs3 4y ago
  Russia would have to want to join, which it doesn't because (at the very least) NATO is it's existential 'Other' threat that justifies it's politics.
  • amichail 4y ago
    Russia did want to join NATO: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...
    • kjs3 4y ago
      You might take the time to actually read that article. Ignoring the fact it's referencing hearsay from 22 years ago, the General says he told Putin the way to join NATO is simply to apply to join. Obviously, Putin did not want to join enough to, you know, ask to join. He told David Frost he "wouldn't rule it out", which is a loooooong way from actually wanting to do it. I'm sure that I could quickly Google up an example of something Putin "didn't rule out" and never did, but it's awfully clear at this point this isn't a good-faith conversation.