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Please don’t reduce Asian-Americans to the myth of the model minority. The truth is more nuanced. The income gap between poor and rich Asians in the US is the h

Please don’t reduce Asian-Americans to the myth of the model minority. The truth is more nuanced. The income gap between poor and rich Asians in the US is the highest out of any ethnic group. One reason for this is that recent Asian immigration has selected for largely been wealthy and/or well educated populations. So what you call “Asian culture” will have a natural bias towards the preferences of people who value money and education. Also, stereotyping “Asian culture” as a culture which values education implies (in a racist way) that “other cultures” (hint hint) don’t value education. I don’t think you were intending this, but it can be viewed as veiled white-supremacist rhetoric.

Manuel_D 4y ago
The "model minority myth" occurs when someone takes population-wide trends and applies it on an individual level: e.g. "he's Asian, so he must be good at math". That's stereotyping. Pointing at demographic trend in academic achievement isn't the model minority myth, it's an empirical observation. Conflating objective facts with the model minority myth is perhaps well intentioned, but it comes off as a shallow attempt to deny real world observations. Asians Americans, on average do spend more time on academics, and do enter fields like medicine and engineering at higher rates. This is an empirical observation, not the model minority myth. Similarly, there's nothing racist or white supremacist about examining disparities in time spent on academics. If someone takes this data and then judges individuals for population-wide averages, then that's stereotyping and I do not condone that. I'm not sure what your intent was with your last paragraph, but it comes off as an overzealous attempt to portray any analysis of time spent on academics as racist. I certainly wouldn't want someone to assume I'm personally less intelligent than my Asian co-worker because I'm Cuban. But I trust that most people are able to understanding that averages are not the same as individuals. And I find the pattern of people being worried that I'd be offended by data on Latin americans' academic achievement condescending. I am smart enough to understand that data saying Latin Americans on average spend less time on academics than whites or asians is not an attack on me personally, thank you very much.
- tylerhou 4y ago
  I’m Asian-American, if you can’t tell by my username. My point is that very often the success of Asian-Americans even though they are a disadvantaged class has been used to justify anti-Black rhetoric. In the context of this HN thread, which is specifically about D&I and hiring more Black people, bringing up a “better Asian culture” can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional. This is the myth of the model minority. It’s a mistake to assume that “empirical,” “objective” observations cannot be racist. In particular, white-supremacists often intentionally present “facts” and “data” in order to paint a misleading picture. For examples, see 13/52: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390 https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390. The missing context in 13/52 is that Black people have suffered much more economic and social injustice, Black areas are more likely to be policed, Black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted for the same crime, etc. It would be dishonest to simply say “Black people make up 13% of the population but commit 52%…” without supplying this additional context. I.e. even if the data itself is “objective,” the context and presentation also matters because those will affect how people interpret that data. Again, not trying to say that you were intending to be racist. I just wanted to show you what your statements could imply and that you may be unknowingly repeating white-supremacist rhetoric.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    No, facts are not in and of themselves racist. If someone points out that men commit the vast majority of rape, and thus we shouldn't assume courts are misandrist on account of the immense inequity in rape convictions, that is not sexist. If someone points to this fact to try and justify a curfew for men, or lowered burdens of proof the yes it is. A flag showing "13/52" next to a snarling ape is undoubtedly racist. Pushing back against a quota mandating that African Americans make up no more than 13% of murder convictions, on the grounds that murder rates are not equal isn't racist. Is this really hard to comprehend? I expect the average middle schooler is capable of understanding this, and repeatedly cautioning HN readers about potentially racist readings is more than a little condescending.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    > can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional I agree that people interpret things as dogwhistles even when they were not intended that way. To me, that's a problem because it means anything can be a dogwhistle. It also doesn't make sense given the meaning of "dogwhistle" which is something that is intended to communicate to an in-group. If it is not intended, then it's not a dogwhistle.
woojoo666 4y ago
> Also, stereotyping “Asian culture” as a culture which values education implies (in a racist way) that “other cultures” (hint hint) don’t value education. No it doesn't. It implies that asian culture values education more than other cultures. Which has been shown in some studies. For example, this one from 2013 [1] showed that, when asked if a college degree was necessary for success, 70% of hispanics said yes, as well as 61% of asians, 55% of blacks, and 47% of whites. A more recent study from 2020 [2] asked if college led to more job opportunities, and 89% of asians said yes, as well as 86% of whites, 74% of latinos, and 69% of blacks. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/white-people-are-skeptical-about-the-value-of-a-college-degree/281238/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/white-... [2]: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-education-differ-race-politics-and-age https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-...

Manuel_D 4y ago

The "model minority myth" occurs when someone takes population-wide trends and applies it on an individual level: e.g. "he's Asian, so he must be good at math". That's stereotyping. Pointing at demographic trend in academic achievement isn't the model minority myth, it's an empirical observation. Conflating objective facts with the model minority myth is perhaps well intentioned, but it comes off as a shallow attempt to deny real world observations. Asians Americans, on average do spend more time on academics, and do enter fields like medicine and engineering at higher rates. This is an empirical observation, not the model minority myth. Similarly, there's nothing racist or white supremacist about examining disparities in time spent on academics. If someone takes this data and then judges individuals for population-wide averages, then that's stereotyping and I do not condone that. I'm not sure what your intent was with your last paragraph, but it comes off as an overzealous attempt to portray any analysis of time spent on academics as racist. I certainly wouldn't want someone to assume I'm personally less intelligent than my Asian co-worker because I'm Cuban. But I trust that most people are able to understanding that averages are not the same as individuals. And I find the pattern of people being worried that I'd be offended by data on Latin americans' academic achievement condescending. I am smart enough to understand that data saying Latin Americans on average spend less time on academics than whites or asians is not an attack on me personally, thank you very much.

tylerhou 4y ago
I’m Asian-American, if you can’t tell by my username. My point is that very often the success of Asian-Americans even though they are a disadvantaged class has been used to justify anti-Black rhetoric. In the context of this HN thread, which is specifically about D&I and hiring more Black people, bringing up a “better Asian culture” can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional. This is the myth of the model minority. It’s a mistake to assume that “empirical,” “objective” observations cannot be racist. In particular, white-supremacists often intentionally present “facts” and “data” in order to paint a misleading picture. For examples, see 13/52: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390 https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390. The missing context in 13/52 is that Black people have suffered much more economic and social injustice, Black areas are more likely to be policed, Black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted for the same crime, etc. It would be dishonest to simply say “Black people make up 13% of the population but commit 52%…” without supplying this additional context. I.e. even if the data itself is “objective,” the context and presentation also matters because those will affect how people interpret that data. Again, not trying to say that you were intending to be racist. I just wanted to show you what your statements could imply and that you may be unknowingly repeating white-supremacist rhetoric.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  No, facts are not in and of themselves racist. If someone points out that men commit the vast majority of rape, and thus we shouldn't assume courts are misandrist on account of the immense inequity in rape convictions, that is not sexist. If someone points to this fact to try and justify a curfew for men, or lowered burdens of proof the yes it is. A flag showing "13/52" next to a snarling ape is undoubtedly racist. Pushing back against a quota mandating that African Americans make up no more than 13% of murder convictions, on the grounds that murder rates are not equal isn't racist. Is this really hard to comprehend? I expect the average middle schooler is capable of understanding this, and repeatedly cautioning HN readers about potentially racist readings is more than a little condescending.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  > can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional I agree that people interpret things as dogwhistles even when they were not intended that way. To me, that's a problem because it means anything can be a dogwhistle. It also doesn't make sense given the meaning of "dogwhistle" which is something that is intended to communicate to an in-group. If it is not intended, then it's not a dogwhistle.

woojoo666 4y ago

> Also, stereotyping “Asian culture” as a culture which values education implies (in a racist way) that “other cultures” (hint hint) don’t value education. No it doesn't. It implies that asian culture values education more than other cultures. Which has been shown in some studies. For example, this one from 2013 [1] showed that, when asked if a college degree was necessary for success, 70% of hispanics said yes, as well as 61% of asians, 55% of blacks, and 47% of whites. A more recent study from 2020 [2] asked if college led to more job opportunities, and 89% of asians said yes, as well as 86% of whites, 74% of latinos, and 69% of blacks. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/white-people-are-skeptical-about-the-value-of-a-college-degree/281238/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/white-... [2]: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-education-differ-race-politics-and-age https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-...