6 ms·

At this moment in time I think companies can gain a major hiring advantage by simply hiring the best regardless of race/gender. So many large companies are shoo

At this moment in time I think companies can gain a major hiring advantage by simply hiring the best regardless of race/gender. So many large companies are shooting themselves in the foot distorting incentives and saying "no" to people who are the wrong color/gender.

franczesko 4y ago
This. Saying "no" to people based on their physical appearance is a discrimination.
- chrischattin 4y ago
  It's also illegal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - version_five 4y ago
    I'm not sure about in the US, I know in Canada we've had lots of university faculty positions advertised recently that are explicity for women or some other groups. I don't understand how it's legal but it is.
    - richbell 4y ago
      In Canada the definition of "visible minority" is essentially anyone who isn't a white male. https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/jobs/services/gc-jobs/employment-equity.html https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/jobs/serv...
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      > I don't understand how it's legal but it is. Are you sure? Many countries require being harmed by an action and then bringing that action before a court, before anyone ever compares that action to any specific law at all. So you can see how many actions become de facto legal if nobody ever does that.
    - gnull 4y ago
      Some manage to find a workaround even when it's illegal. I was reading somewhere that Lund University in Sweden was cancelling the job opening right before the deadline if the most promising candidate wasn't a woman. There's so much bullshit in this. Universities are not allowed to advertise positions as "women only", but at the same time they are required to reach certain percentage of female "representation" by law.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    A recent discussion on HN surfaced this fact. It's legal for higher education for now, but hiring is different. I think a lot of people don't realize this. I didn't. I assumed if you could do it for education you could do it for hiring. Apparently not!
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Any source? This seems to indicate that minority demographics may be targeted for recruitment, advancement, etc. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact At least at my company, I know they have preferences for minorities over similarly qualified candidates. I've heard a department head specifically tell the managers that we need more women in a specific role. Maybe they're just breaking the law though...
      - crackercrews 4y ago
        This is one longish discussion of the differences between education and hiring. [1] I think there is a carveout for federal contractors, which is what your link refers to. In general, it is not legal in hiring. 1: https://spigglelaw.com/employers-affirmative-action-boost-diversity/ https://spigglelaw.com/employers-affirmative-action-boost-di...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Is it? I think there's an affirmative action lawsuit currently pending before SCOTUS. It seems discrimination is allowable (so far) as long as it has good intentions. It may change with this case. Although there could be some discrepancy with a colloquial use of discrimination which includes an implied notion of negative bias, while positive biases (preferences to certain candidates) can also fit the more dry definition.
  - wyager 4y ago
    The law doesn't matter except to the degree that the regime will enforce it.
- theow7384iri 4y ago
- noasaservice 4y ago
  That's cause "they're just not a good fit". (for you who downmodded me, this saying is how management gets away with illegal discrimination without saying the quiet part out loud)
- mmmpop 4y ago
bergenty 4y ago
- PointA2B 4y ago
- crackercrews 4y ago
  > Hiring the best people invariably leads to hiring a very diverse team If this is true, then I guess affirmative action isn't needed, right?
  - bergenty 4y ago
    There’s no affirmative action anywhere. What are you referring to?
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  "Hiring the best people invariably leads to hiring a very diverse team." Only the diversity may go along the lines that the contemporary DEI philosophy does not like or even accept. E.g. a Ukrainian refugee, a kid of poor Korean shopkeepers, an ex-Muslim atheist who does not even want to pretend that he is still Muslim.
  - cvalka 4y ago
    +1
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  I don’t appreciate the casual racism in your post.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Every article I’ve ever read on pushback against DEI has been a white male author so it’s just “stats” as the sayings goes.
jimbob45 4y ago
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  > The new leftist talking point is that there is no possible way to measure merit objectively so we shouldn't even attempt to do so. Therefore, they would counter your point by saying that you're incapable of hiring the best based on merit. Those who believe that there is no possibility of measuring merit are destined to be out-competed by those who can and do measure it at least somewhat accurately.
  - lr4444lr 4y ago
    Unless they can successfully create laws to hamstring their betters.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      That works within a country. It doesn't help against international competition, though. (And countries face international competition too...)
- mnd999 4y ago
  > The new leftist talking point Please stop with the tribal generalisations. There are more than two points of view in the world.
- arbitrage 4y ago
- weakfish 4y ago
  Gross generalizations don’t really help prove a point
  - jimbob45 4y ago
    Here are four examples from this very thread. Reddit is currently saying the same, though the identical verbiage is entirely coincidental. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33167483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33167483
systemvoltage 4y ago
I think we're going to see a rise of new companies formed, perhaps not from Silicon Valley, that will reject the whole D&I concept and move forward with complete blindness to race, culture, or gender. They will excel, outperform and form a new age of englightenment. I don't think this will happen because I want it to, it will happen because incentives and fundamentals of operations of a company – i.e., just focus on building good things.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  It is also possible that those companies will be suffocated by the fact that banks won't extend credit to them (ESG) or angry Twitter will pressure potential customers not to do business with them.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    True, this is actually happening as we speak. There will be a bifurcation, once enough flywheel speed has picked up; ESG funds will see competitor funds that will outperform. No wasting money on greenwashing or other ESG bullshit. Totalitarianism has to fight a war with reality and facts. It is unsustainable (pardon the pun).
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      It is likely that some foreign funds (Arab, Chinese) won't give a damn about ESG anytime soon, if at all. That said, this is how you end with critical technology in potential adversaries' hands.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > ESG funds will see competitor funds that will outperform. No wasting money on greenwashing or other ESG bullshit. Would that work? IIRC, stock prices aren't so much about performance, just who wants to buy your stock. Decreased actual performance from "greenwashing or other ESG bullshit" might be overwhelmed by demand by ESG pots of money.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
forgomonika 4y ago
That doesn't work. There are some really amazing people out there that don't fit the typical tech mold of straight cis (white) guy. They don't stick around if they have to navigate a monoculture that doesn't understand that they are constantly throwing out micro-aggressions to people outside of their view of what acceptable behaviour is. Separating your home life from work life only works for so long before you start to crack.
- csmpltn 4y ago
  - weakfish 4y ago
    This comment gives more FUD than the parent. Your comment really adds nothing to the discussion, whereas the parent you’re dismissing is contributing.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- homonculus1 4y ago
  I'm sure you'll be eager to consider that the reverse is also true, except in that case it's the majority of the pool getting aliened by open favoritism toward ethnic minorities and people with bizarre sexual proclivities. If the outcomes of explicit neutrality aren't good enough for you then you'd better start thinking up a new pretense, because people can see through it quite easily and they aren't going to put up with it forever.
  - forgomonika 4y ago
    I'm sincerely confused about this comment. If I reverse it, I end up with the status quo in a lot of settings: everyone is the same, they don't have to worry about finding ways to interact with people that are different from them, and they get the luxury and safety of being who they are at home while at work. Also, what are "bizarre sexual proclivities"? It sounds like you are living with a thick layer of judgement and shame in your life. That sounds rough.

franczesko 4y ago

This. Saying "no" to people based on their physical appearance is a discrimination.

chrischattin 4y ago
It's also illegal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- version_five 4y ago
  I'm not sure about in the US, I know in Canada we've had lots of university faculty positions advertised recently that are explicity for women or some other groups. I don't understand how it's legal but it is.
  - richbell 4y ago
    In Canada the definition of "visible minority" is essentially anyone who isn't a white male. https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/jobs/services/gc-jobs/employment-equity.html https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/jobs/serv...
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    > I don't understand how it's legal but it is. Are you sure? Many countries require being harmed by an action and then bringing that action before a court, before anyone ever compares that action to any specific law at all. So you can see how many actions become de facto legal if nobody ever does that.
  - gnull 4y ago
    Some manage to find a workaround even when it's illegal. I was reading somewhere that Lund University in Sweden was cancelling the job opening right before the deadline if the most promising candidate wasn't a woman. There's so much bullshit in this. Universities are not allowed to advertise positions as "women only", but at the same time they are required to reach certain percentage of female "representation" by law.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  A recent discussion on HN surfaced this fact. It's legal for higher education for now, but hiring is different. I think a lot of people don't realize this. I didn't. I assumed if you could do it for education you could do it for hiring. Apparently not!
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Any source? This seems to indicate that minority demographics may be targeted for recruitment, advancement, etc. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact At least at my company, I know they have preferences for minorities over similarly qualified candidates. I've heard a department head specifically tell the managers that we need more women in a specific role. Maybe they're just breaking the law though...
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      This is one longish discussion of the differences between education and hiring. [1] I think there is a carveout for federal contractors, which is what your link refers to. In general, it is not legal in hiring. 1: https://spigglelaw.com/employers-affirmative-action-boost-diversity/ https://spigglelaw.com/employers-affirmative-action-boost-di...
- giantg2 4y ago
  Is it? I think there's an affirmative action lawsuit currently pending before SCOTUS. It seems discrimination is allowable (so far) as long as it has good intentions. It may change with this case. Although there could be some discrepancy with a colloquial use of discrimination which includes an implied notion of negative bias, while positive biases (preferences to certain candidates) can also fit the more dry definition.
- wyager 4y ago
  The law doesn't matter except to the degree that the regime will enforce it.
theow7384iri 4y ago
noasaservice 4y ago
That's cause "they're just not a good fit". (for you who downmodded me, this saying is how management gets away with illegal discrimination without saying the quiet part out loud)
mmmpop 4y ago

bergenty 4y ago

PointA2B 4y ago
crackercrews 4y ago
> Hiring the best people invariably leads to hiring a very diverse team If this is true, then I guess affirmative action isn't needed, right?
- bergenty 4y ago
  There’s no affirmative action anywhere. What are you referring to?
inglor_cz 4y ago
"Hiring the best people invariably leads to hiring a very diverse team." Only the diversity may go along the lines that the contemporary DEI philosophy does not like or even accept. E.g. a Ukrainian refugee, a kid of poor Korean shopkeepers, an ex-Muslim atheist who does not even want to pretend that he is still Muslim.
- cvalka 4y ago
  +1
epicureanideal 4y ago
I don’t appreciate the casual racism in your post.
- bergenty 4y ago
  Every article I’ve ever read on pushback against DEI has been a white male author so it’s just “stats” as the sayings goes.

jimbob45 4y ago

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> The new leftist talking point is that there is no possible way to measure merit objectively so we shouldn't even attempt to do so. Therefore, they would counter your point by saying that you're incapable of hiring the best based on merit. Those who believe that there is no possibility of measuring merit are destined to be out-competed by those who can and do measure it at least somewhat accurately.
- lr4444lr 4y ago
  Unless they can successfully create laws to hamstring their betters.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    That works within a country. It doesn't help against international competition, though. (And countries face international competition too...)
mnd999 4y ago
> The new leftist talking point Please stop with the tribal generalisations. There are more than two points of view in the world.
arbitrage 4y ago
weakfish 4y ago
Gross generalizations don’t really help prove a point
- jimbob45 4y ago
  Here are four examples from this very thread. Reddit is currently saying the same, though the identical verbiage is entirely coincidental. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33166773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33167483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33167483

systemvoltage 4y ago

I think we're going to see a rise of new companies formed, perhaps not from Silicon Valley, that will reject the whole D&I concept and move forward with complete blindness to race, culture, or gender. They will excel, outperform and form a new age of englightenment. I don't think this will happen because I want it to, it will happen because incentives and fundamentals of operations of a company – i.e., just focus on building good things.

inglor_cz 4y ago
It is also possible that those companies will be suffocated by the fact that banks won't extend credit to them (ESG) or angry Twitter will pressure potential customers not to do business with them.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  True, this is actually happening as we speak. There will be a bifurcation, once enough flywheel speed has picked up; ESG funds will see competitor funds that will outperform. No wasting money on greenwashing or other ESG bullshit. Totalitarianism has to fight a war with reality and facts. It is unsustainable (pardon the pun).
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    It is likely that some foreign funds (Arab, Chinese) won't give a damn about ESG anytime soon, if at all. That said, this is how you end with critical technology in potential adversaries' hands.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > ESG funds will see competitor funds that will outperform. No wasting money on greenwashing or other ESG bullshit. Would that work? IIRC, stock prices aren't so much about performance, just who wants to buy your stock. Decreased actual performance from "greenwashing or other ESG bullshit" might be overwhelmed by demand by ESG pots of money.
- tablespoon 4y ago

forgomonika 4y ago

That doesn't work. There are some really amazing people out there that don't fit the typical tech mold of straight cis (white) guy. They don't stick around if they have to navigate a monoculture that doesn't understand that they are constantly throwing out micro-aggressions to people outside of their view of what acceptable behaviour is. Separating your home life from work life only works for so long before you start to crack.

csmpltn 4y ago
- weakfish 4y ago
  This comment gives more FUD than the parent. Your comment really adds nothing to the discussion, whereas the parent you’re dismissing is contributing.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
homonculus1 4y ago
I'm sure you'll be eager to consider that the reverse is also true, except in that case it's the majority of the pool getting aliened by open favoritism toward ethnic minorities and people with bizarre sexual proclivities. If the outcomes of explicit neutrality aren't good enough for you then you'd better start thinking up a new pretense, because people can see through it quite easily and they aren't going to put up with it forever.
- forgomonika 4y ago
  I'm sincerely confused about this comment. If I reverse it, I end up with the status quo in a lot of settings: everyone is the same, they don't have to worry about finding ways to interact with people that are different from them, and they get the luxury and safety of being who they are at home while at work. Also, what are "bizarre sexual proclivities"? It sounds like you are living with a thick layer of judgement and shame in your life. That sounds rough.