7 ms·

I hate articles like these and their appeals to "meritocracy". Before my current team, my whole career, every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusive

by bedobi 4y ago

I hate articles like these and their appeals to "meritocracy". Before my current team, my whole career, every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. Maybe each person on those teams was objectively the "best" candidate for their respective hiring round! (though I doubt it) But they make horrible teams. If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not. My current team is a diverse group of well-rounded people. Some women, some men, some younger, some older, from many ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Guess which is the higher performing? Guess which has a safe atmosphere with zero dick measuring? Guess which is the most pleasant to be a part of? Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? etc etc Sure, there's lots of room for improvement in how tech businesses actually implement diversity vs just paying lip service to it and slicing numbers. But don't pretend like diversity isn't sorely needed in the industry.

delusional 4y ago
Anyone with their head out their asses who has ever worked a real job knows that the "meritocracy" is bullshit. Plenty of under performers get jobs. Plenty of overachievers get run down for a variety of factors. The idea that the worthy somehow rise above adversity is confirmation bias at its very worst. I don't even think you want a "meritocracy". I want a world where people are happy. If that means they're all doing jobs they suck at, then so be it.
chernevik 4y ago
> "If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not." Yes, it's true. There has never been a strong team of young, white nerdy men. Never happened. Technological and engineering progress was at a baffling standstill for centuries until the wisdom of diversity, inclusion and equity dawned upon us.
- stonogo 4y ago
  Your sarcasm would work better if anyone understood what the hell you were trying to refer to. You seem to ascribe "technological and engineering progress" exclusively to teams of young, white, nerdy men in this comment, which is clearly something only an idiot would do, so I presume you are trying to make a different, better point. Feel free to let us know what that might be.
  - secondcoming 4y ago
    From TFA: > But they make horrible teams.
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      To be fair, Microsoft Teams is horrible.
  - troon-lover 4y ago
  - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
    I think op is saying these things: - We've had major progress over the last however many decades. - A lot of the teams responsible for that work were probably made up of young white nerdy males (obviously not all, but young nerdy males probably covers a large portion of them, otherwise why would we even be here talking about DEI initiatives?) - were all of those teams horrible?
    - stonogo 4y ago
      No, the OP is taking for granted that "a lot" of the teams responsible for that work were made of young white nerdy males, and provides no justification for this assumption. Especially in a world where, prior to the current computer boom, Western scientific progress has been associated with grizzled elderly people in solitary labs, and technology was the purview of megacorps run by middle-aged managers.
  - leveraction 4y ago
    I think the point was that quite a bit of technolgical progess happened in the world prior to diversity initiatives. The reference to white nerds likely places the comment in an historical US perspective, possibly western European. Advanced technologies developed in other non-diverse cultures as well. China comes to mind in particular. But I feel like you knew that already. "Feel free to let us know what that might be." If we have sarcasm tags, maybe we should have snark tags as well?
robertlagrant 4y ago
This is a fallacy, unless you would change your mind if someone else experienced the opposite. "Making a good team" is part of meritocracy. D&I is often implemented as an entirely separate quota system.
splistud 4y ago
ifyoubuildit 4y ago
> Before my current team, my whole career, every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. Maybe each person on those teams was objectively the "best" candidate for their respective hiring round! (though I doubt it) But they make horrible teams. If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not. Do you think this would be true if you expanded it to all teams made up of one single demographic? Or is it just young white nerdy males? Cause that would sound pretty controversial if you swapped out white for any other color.
- andirk 4y ago
  Dare they go to another country that is heavily one demographic and hence the tech teams are. All those countries' teams are "horrible"? God forbid a family be of shared blood.
  - bedobi 4y ago
    There are no countries that are "heavily one demographic"
    - andirk 4y ago
      What?? It is common for certain areas to be mostly populated by a certain demographic. Iceland: 93% ethnic Icelandic. Bolivia 88% Mestizo/Indigenous. Thailand 93% Buddhist. India 80% Hindu. Japan 98% ethnic Japanese. Nigeria 100% fast. Dive in to specific geographic areas within a country and it is often fully homogenous. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16...
      - bedobi 4y ago
        Oh yeah, everyone in those countries are the same ethnicity, gender, the same relationship and family status, the same interests and personality type etc etc? Literally no diversity proponents are saying tech teams in Taiwan must have 20% African Americans or whatever and you'd have to be completely missing the point, or willfully missing it, to think so. In any case, it's pretty telling of your level of understanding of the topic that you seem to think that's what we're saying. Likewise using friggin India and Nigeria as examples of "fully homogenous" countries is also very telling of your knowledge about other countries from your own. Just wow.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>But don't pretend like diversity isn't sorely needed in the industry Diversity on most commonly selected metrics barely does a thing as far as empirical evidence goes. The metrics that really matter aren't actively selected for. At best they are a byproduct. More often than not, the teams willing to be open about hiring gain their benefits over being open and cooperative rather than their diversity hires magically boosting things. But by all means, let's continue to be reductionist by stereotyping 'le weird white young male' group.
crackercrews 4y ago
> Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? I find the current push toward so-called equity to be more toxic than anything I experienced on male-dominated teams. People fear saying things because they don't want to be called out. Someone uses a phrase like "off the reservation" or "grandfathered" or "whitelisted" and then we have to have a meeting about how someone might have been offended. Was anyone offended? No. But we'll have a meeting to discuss a hypothetically-offended person. This leads to some behavior change but also some silent backlash. I get that certain types of toxic behavior might be limited on diverse teams. But it's simply not the case that by adding women and minorities we will eliminate toxic behavior. From what I've seen, we simply swap one type of toxicity for another.
secondcoming 4y ago
Speechless.
0x445442 4y ago
> every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. You worked at Big-O Tires as an installer?
sebzim4500 4y ago
>Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? Probably the one that isn't making hiring decisions based on the colour of the applicant's skin.
boppo1 4y ago
>If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not. This is clear racial prejudice.

by bedobi 4y ago

delusional 4y ago

Anyone with their head out their asses who has ever worked a real job knows that the "meritocracy" is bullshit. Plenty of under performers get jobs. Plenty of overachievers get run down for a variety of factors. The idea that the worthy somehow rise above adversity is confirmation bias at its very worst. I don't even think you want a "meritocracy". I want a world where people are happy. If that means they're all doing jobs they suck at, then so be it.

chernevik 4y ago

> "If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not." Yes, it's true. There has never been a strong team of young, white nerdy men. Never happened. Technological and engineering progress was at a baffling standstill for centuries until the wisdom of diversity, inclusion and equity dawned upon us.

stonogo 4y ago
Your sarcasm would work better if anyone understood what the hell you were trying to refer to. You seem to ascribe "technological and engineering progress" exclusively to teams of young, white, nerdy men in this comment, which is clearly something only an idiot would do, so I presume you are trying to make a different, better point. Feel free to let us know what that might be.
- secondcoming 4y ago
  From TFA: > But they make horrible teams.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    To be fair, Microsoft Teams is horrible.
- troon-lover 4y ago
- ifyoubuildit 4y ago
  I think op is saying these things: - We've had major progress over the last however many decades. - A lot of the teams responsible for that work were probably made up of young white nerdy males (obviously not all, but young nerdy males probably covers a large portion of them, otherwise why would we even be here talking about DEI initiatives?) - were all of those teams horrible?
  - stonogo 4y ago
    No, the OP is taking for granted that "a lot" of the teams responsible for that work were made of young white nerdy males, and provides no justification for this assumption. Especially in a world where, prior to the current computer boom, Western scientific progress has been associated with grizzled elderly people in solitary labs, and technology was the purview of megacorps run by middle-aged managers.
- leveraction 4y ago
  I think the point was that quite a bit of technolgical progess happened in the world prior to diversity initiatives. The reference to white nerds likely places the comment in an historical US perspective, possibly western European. Advanced technologies developed in other non-diverse cultures as well. China comes to mind in particular. But I feel like you knew that already. "Feel free to let us know what that might be." If we have sarcasm tags, maybe we should have snark tags as well?

robertlagrant 4y ago

This is a fallacy, unless you would change your mind if someone else experienced the opposite. "Making a good team" is part of meritocracy. D&I is often implemented as an entirely separate quota system.

splistud 4y ago

ifyoubuildit 4y ago

> Before my current team, my whole career, every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. Maybe each person on those teams was objectively the "best" candidate for their respective hiring round! (though I doubt it) But they make horrible teams. If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not. Do you think this would be true if you expanded it to all teams made up of one single demographic? Or is it just young white nerdy males? Cause that would sound pretty controversial if you swapped out white for any other color.

andirk 4y ago
Dare they go to another country that is heavily one demographic and hence the tech teams are. All those countries' teams are "horrible"? God forbid a family be of shared blood.
- bedobi 4y ago
  There are no countries that are "heavily one demographic"
  - andirk 4y ago
    What?? It is common for certain areas to be mostly populated by a certain demographic. Iceland: 93% ethnic Icelandic. Bolivia 88% Mestizo/Indigenous. Thailand 93% Buddhist. India 80% Hindu. Japan 98% ethnic Japanese. Nigeria 100% fast. Dive in to specific geographic areas within a country and it is often fully homogenous. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16...
    - bedobi 4y ago
      Oh yeah, everyone in those countries are the same ethnicity, gender, the same relationship and family status, the same interests and personality type etc etc? Literally no diversity proponents are saying tech teams in Taiwan must have 20% African Americans or whatever and you'd have to be completely missing the point, or willfully missing it, to think so. In any case, it's pretty telling of your level of understanding of the topic that you seem to think that's what we're saying. Likewise using friggin India and Nigeria as examples of "fully homogenous" countries is also very telling of your knowledge about other countries from your own. Just wow.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>But don't pretend like diversity isn't sorely needed in the industry Diversity on most commonly selected metrics barely does a thing as far as empirical evidence goes. The metrics that really matter aren't actively selected for. At best they are a byproduct. More often than not, the teams willing to be open about hiring gain their benefits over being open and cooperative rather than their diversity hires magically boosting things. But by all means, let's continue to be reductionist by stereotyping 'le weird white young male' group.

crackercrews 4y ago

> Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? I find the current push toward so-called equity to be more toxic than anything I experienced on male-dominated teams. People fear saying things because they don't want to be called out. Someone uses a phrase like "off the reservation" or "grandfathered" or "whitelisted" and then we have to have a meeting about how someone might have been offended. Was anyone offended? No. But we'll have a meeting to discuss a hypothetically-offended person. This leads to some behavior change but also some silent backlash. I get that certain types of toxic behavior might be limited on diverse teams. But it's simply not the case that by adding women and minorities we will eliminate toxic behavior. From what I've seen, we simply swap one type of toxicity for another.

secondcoming 4y ago

Speechless.

0x445442 4y ago

> every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. You worked at Big-O Tires as an installer?

sebzim4500 4y ago

>Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? Probably the one that isn't making hiring decisions based on the colour of the applicant's skin.

boppo1 4y ago

>If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it's not. This is clear racial prejudice.