4 ms·

Nvidia has shot itself in the foot on this round. Getting used to the crazy demand because of Crypto + Covid has left them a little off-center I think. Regard

by MR4D 4y ago

Nvidia has shot itself in the foot on this round. Getting used to the crazy demand because of Crypto + Covid has left them a little off-center I think. Regardless of what AMD does (although I hope the Reg is right on their pricing thoughts), the market is highly disrupted on the low end due to Intel. If you run DX12 games (and as time goes by, more games will be), then Intel will be a nice price point. Assuming that Battlemage is something akin to a 3080, but at the price of Arc, then they could cause real problems due to the price anchoring effect. [0] [0] - https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2021/04/01/the-anchoring-effect https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2021...

nullifidian 4y ago
Intel's GPUs are currently not very competitive due to the highly unreliable performance with the majority of the gaming library, which is mostly not DX12 based. The reviews of the ARC cards are so bad for Intel I wouldn't be surprised if the stock will soon be on sale at prices below the manufacturing cost.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  I don't know about you, but I buy my GPU's with the future in mind. I expect a GPU to last 3-5 years, so DX12 & Vulkan performance is my main consideration.
  - BuckRogers 4y ago
    You may not have to worry much about Vulkan too much longer. Adoption is already low and Valve's Proton is going to ensure no one bothers targeting anything but DirectX. I know I wouldn't, Valve and some open-source community is going to worry about that for me.
- Retric 4y ago
  Having worse performance on older games is irrelevant when it’s still 120+FPS. So only a subset of pre DX12 titles that are at issue. And of course a buyer in 6 months will likely have much better drivers which means even better performance.
  - nullifidian 4y ago
    In many cases it's 80-120 FPS but with a horrific stuttering. Example: https://youtu.be/nETQGtt024k?t=10927 https://youtu.be/nETQGtt024k?t=10927
    - compsciphd 4y ago
      the horrific stuttering (I'd think) is easier to fix than simply trying to optimize the drivers to improve overall performance.
      - nottorp 4y ago
        One can hope... some people do replay older games. Or just have a huge backlog.
        BuckRogers 4y ago
        It depends if it can be patched in drivers or has to be patched in the game. If it's the game, all bets are off. No truly popular game is abandoned though. There's even a FreeCiv. If can be done in the drivers, expect nearly every even remotely popular report coming in to eventually be fixed. This hardware is going into Intel's CPUs sooner than later. Support won't be lacking. The support for this card may dwarf AMD and Nvidia's own support. Intel is using D3D9On12 and perhaps D3D11On12. I would expect any extremely popular titles like CSGo (DX9C) and LoL (DX11 and offers a legacy DX9 mode) to get hand-tuned by Intel. For most recent games and going forward, most games target engines, not APIs. Between that trend and DX12, I expect Arc to be just fine. I can find you driver bugs with both Nvidia and AMD today. I've experienced visual bugs with both. I'm using an older branch of Nvidia's drivers right now due to stuttering that occurs on newer branches. There's no outrage because this happens all the time with GPU vendors. Intel puts out a very good dGPU and people are hyper-critical.
        nottorp 4y ago
        > There's even a FreeCiv. Well, for every FreeCiv and Devilution there are 10K other titles that no one is reimplementing.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  The gaming library follows the market. Just because Nvidia released a high-end GPU with an extremely high-end MSRP doesn't mean that game studios will develop games for it, because most users will not be able to afford a $1600 GPU to run those games. Nvidia started development on this card before the crypto crash. This card made sense for a market in which users expected to be able to spend money to make money, it does not make sense for a market in which The Steam hardware survey says that only 0.52% of users have an RTX 3090[1]. Pasting the data [2] into a spreadsheet, some quick selection groups say that more than half of all Steam users have hardware older or less powerful than a 1080. They've all been priced out; why would you build a game that most users can't play? [1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/?sort=name https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/?sort=name [2] https://pastebin.com/w7rneTFc https://pastebin.com/w7rneTFc
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    The gaming market won't develop for the 4090. However, they will use the 4090 as an approximation of the performance of a 5080, 6070 and 7060 and will eventually target the 7060.
    - ls612 4y ago
      Also, in a year or two a game may target a 4060 for 1080p max settings, so you can get 1440p max settings on a 4070 (4080 12GB), 4K on a true 4080, and high refresh/RTX on a 4090 at 4K.
causi 4y ago
Nvidia has shot itself in the foot on this round. You sure about that? It still feels like we're being bent over and Nvidia is just laughing.
- XorNot 4y ago
  Intel with decent GPU performance is doomsday for laptops IMO. They've always been more reliable and simpler to run. Business doesn't care, and now developers are going to have a decent option while not having to deal with the dual GPU insanity.
  - uni_rule 4y ago
    That and AMD's next set of laptop CPUs will have RDNA2 graphics and steamdeck-tier gpu performance, so really its a war on two fronts in the mobile space. They're screwed in that regard.
    - nicolaslem 4y ago
      You mean current set of laptops, the 6000 series with RDNA2 graphics has been available for a while now. It provides 1080p/medium tier of performance.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  Last I heard, Nvidia was sitting on a pile of 3000 series cards and had way too much fab allocation for the 4000 series because they were counting on crypto. Not really a laughing matter if that's the case.
  - causi 4y ago
    Last I heard, Nvidia was sitting on a pile of 3000 series cards And yet I still can't buy a two year old 3080 for its launch price MSRP.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
nickv 4y ago
I am so confused by all of these comments/articles, they're clearly created before actual benchmarks have come out (and also seem to have no real world experience with intel GPUs, etc). Intel Arc cards are dead in the water because they have extremely unusably unstable drivers. To the point of the word "broken" being applicable. This hasn't gotten better with the A750 (in fact, it's gotten worse it seems?). The 4090 is extremely expensive, but it is ludicrously stupidly comically powerful. It's 10x-20x more powerful than a 2080, nearly 100% more powerful than a previously more expensive MSRP 3090ti and this is BEFORE DLSS3, which is not a gimmick. Check out the GN review of the 4090, the metrics are ridiculous. F1 at 4k gets 230 FPS vs 135 for a 3090ti and 41 for the 2080. Total War at 1440p gets 235fps vs 135 for a 3090 ti and 47fps for a 2080. Yes, its extremely expensive, but it's Nvidia's HERO card. You're going to see downward movement with the 4080 models (one basically being a 4070 in disguise) next month. These cards are too powerful for anything out there today (they do cyberpunk at 4k at 80fps without DLSS and 135 fps with it) but this is a card you buy if you're looking at 3-5 year upgrade cycles. Comparing this card to Intel's Arc is crazy. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Civic. They both serve a purpose, but their markets are completely different. That being said, I bet you the 4090 will outsell the intel arc 750 by a stupidly large margin. It has to suck if you spent $2000 MSRP on a 3090ti in March though.

by MR4D 4y ago

nullifidian 4y ago

Intel's GPUs are currently not very competitive due to the highly unreliable performance with the majority of the gaming library, which is mostly not DX12 based. The reviews of the ARC cards are so bad for Intel I wouldn't be surprised if the stock will soon be on sale at prices below the manufacturing cost.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
I don't know about you, but I buy my GPU's with the future in mind. I expect a GPU to last 3-5 years, so DX12 & Vulkan performance is my main consideration.
- BuckRogers 4y ago
  You may not have to worry much about Vulkan too much longer. Adoption is already low and Valve's Proton is going to ensure no one bothers targeting anything but DirectX. I know I wouldn't, Valve and some open-source community is going to worry about that for me.
Retric 4y ago
Having worse performance on older games is irrelevant when it’s still 120+FPS. So only a subset of pre DX12 titles that are at issue. And of course a buyer in 6 months will likely have much better drivers which means even better performance.
- nullifidian 4y ago
  In many cases it's 80-120 FPS but with a horrific stuttering. Example: https://youtu.be/nETQGtt024k?t=10927 https://youtu.be/nETQGtt024k?t=10927
  - compsciphd 4y ago
    the horrific stuttering (I'd think) is easier to fix than simply trying to optimize the drivers to improve overall performance.
    - nottorp 4y ago
      One can hope... some people do replay older games. Or just have a huge backlog.
      - BuckRogers 4y ago
        It depends if it can be patched in drivers or has to be patched in the game. If it's the game, all bets are off. No truly popular game is abandoned though. There's even a FreeCiv. If can be done in the drivers, expect nearly every even remotely popular report coming in to eventually be fixed. This hardware is going into Intel's CPUs sooner than later. Support won't be lacking. The support for this card may dwarf AMD and Nvidia's own support. Intel is using D3D9On12 and perhaps D3D11On12. I would expect any extremely popular titles like CSGo (DX9C) and LoL (DX11 and offers a legacy DX9 mode) to get hand-tuned by Intel. For most recent games and going forward, most games target engines, not APIs. Between that trend and DX12, I expect Arc to be just fine. I can find you driver bugs with both Nvidia and AMD today. I've experienced visual bugs with both. I'm using an older branch of Nvidia's drivers right now due to stuttering that occurs on newer branches. There's no outrage because this happens all the time with GPU vendors. Intel puts out a very good dGPU and people are hyper-critical.
        nottorp 4y ago
        > There's even a FreeCiv. Well, for every FreeCiv and Devilution there are 10K other titles that no one is reimplementing.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
The gaming library follows the market. Just because Nvidia released a high-end GPU with an extremely high-end MSRP doesn't mean that game studios will develop games for it, because most users will not be able to afford a $1600 GPU to run those games. Nvidia started development on this card before the crypto crash. This card made sense for a market in which users expected to be able to spend money to make money, it does not make sense for a market in which The Steam hardware survey says that only 0.52% of users have an RTX 3090[1]. Pasting the data [2] into a spreadsheet, some quick selection groups say that more than half of all Steam users have hardware older or less powerful than a 1080. They've all been priced out; why would you build a game that most users can't play? [1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/?sort=name https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/?sort=name [2] https://pastebin.com/w7rneTFc https://pastebin.com/w7rneTFc
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  The gaming market won't develop for the 4090. However, they will use the 4090 as an approximation of the performance of a 5080, 6070 and 7060 and will eventually target the 7060.
  - ls612 4y ago
    Also, in a year or two a game may target a 4060 for 1080p max settings, so you can get 1440p max settings on a 4070 (4080 12GB), 4K on a true 4080, and high refresh/RTX on a 4090 at 4K.

causi 4y ago

Nvidia has shot itself in the foot on this round. You sure about that? It still feels like we're being bent over and Nvidia is just laughing.

XorNot 4y ago
Intel with decent GPU performance is doomsday for laptops IMO. They've always been more reliable and simpler to run. Business doesn't care, and now developers are going to have a decent option while not having to deal with the dual GPU insanity.
- uni_rule 4y ago
  That and AMD's next set of laptop CPUs will have RDNA2 graphics and steamdeck-tier gpu performance, so really its a war on two fronts in the mobile space. They're screwed in that regard.
  - nicolaslem 4y ago
    You mean current set of laptops, the 6000 series with RDNA2 graphics has been available for a while now. It provides 1080p/medium tier of performance.
Hamuko 4y ago
Last I heard, Nvidia was sitting on a pile of 3000 series cards and had way too much fab allocation for the 4000 series because they were counting on crypto. Not really a laughing matter if that's the case.
- causi 4y ago
  Last I heard, Nvidia was sitting on a pile of 3000 series cards And yet I still can't buy a two year old 3080 for its launch price MSRP.
  - cinntaile 4y ago

nickv 4y ago

I am so confused by all of these comments/articles, they're clearly created before actual benchmarks have come out (and also seem to have no real world experience with intel GPUs, etc). Intel Arc cards are dead in the water because they have extremely unusably unstable drivers. To the point of the word "broken" being applicable. This hasn't gotten better with the A750 (in fact, it's gotten worse it seems?). The 4090 is extremely expensive, but it is ludicrously stupidly comically powerful. It's 10x-20x more powerful than a 2080, nearly 100% more powerful than a previously more expensive MSRP 3090ti and this is BEFORE DLSS3, which is not a gimmick. Check out the GN review of the 4090, the metrics are ridiculous. F1 at 4k gets 230 FPS vs 135 for a 3090ti and 41 for the 2080. Total War at 1440p gets 235fps vs 135 for a 3090 ti and 47fps for a 2080. Yes, its extremely expensive, but it's Nvidia's HERO card. You're going to see downward movement with the 4080 models (one basically being a 4070 in disguise) next month. These cards are too powerful for anything out there today (they do cyberpunk at 4k at 80fps without DLSS and 135 fps with it) but this is a card you buy if you're looking at 3-5 year upgrade cycles. Comparing this card to Intel's Arc is crazy. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Civic. They both serve a purpose, but their markets are completely different. That being said, I bet you the 4090 will outsell the intel arc 750 by a stupidly large margin. It has to suck if you spent $2000 MSRP on a 3090ti in March though.