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> also a single and unified UI toolkit > Whereas, on Linux Wayland, if you want to support GNOME, _you_ have to care about decorations, or you have no titlebar

by kaba0 4y ago

> also a single and unified UI toolkit > Whereas, on Linux Wayland, if you want to support GNOME, _you_ have to care about decorations, or you have no titlebar nor X button And you have basically two UI toolkits for linux that also does everything for you without caring about it, how is that different? Also, if you do decide against using said frameworks, you also have to care about accessibility and a million other things that you weren’t going to do either way let’s be honest, so I don’t know, it seems to be a non-issue to me. Use libraries instead of reimplementing everything from scratch.

badsectoracula 4y ago
> And you have basically two UI toolkits for linux That isn't the case. There are several UI toolkits on Linux, they may not be as widespread as Qt and Gtk are, but they are used by many applications. And even with Qt/Gtk, their developers (especially Gtk) regard each major version as a separate library.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Sure, but then it is the job of those framework developers to.. abstract away the underlying display manager, so they should port their framework to support wayland as well, and application devs can just continue to write against this abstraction. I still see no problem here.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Those others - for better and worse have less developers. Having to figure out two different types of decorations is a mess that they don't have time to, so I can't blame them for picking one.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      That is inherent in open-source/bazaar-style development, and we can all help wherever we can. There is no entity like Apple/Microsoft mandating that we change to Y from X.
account42 4y ago
Please list all distros that still have a GTK or Qt version that is ABI-compatible with one that was available 20 years ago.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Debian continues to package GTK 2.0 which is ABI compatible with GTK 2.0 ... from 20 years ago.
  - account42 4y ago
    That's impressive, but being an optional install and not even available on most distros doesn't really make it a useful target for applications that just want to show some window decorations. I also doubt that Debian have ported GTK 2 to Wayland or added client side decorations to GTK 2 so its even less useful in the context of this discussion.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      New applications would not target GTK 2, obviously. But that's not what you asked. GTK 2 was EOL'ed many years ago, and hence will never have Wayland support nor CSD. But there are dozens of existing applications in Debian's repos that still use it. Wayland is going to have an X server for the foreseeable future, because otherwise the overwhelming majority of GUI applications for Linux will not run there.

by kaba0 4y ago

badsectoracula 4y ago

> And you have basically two UI toolkits for linux That isn't the case. There are several UI toolkits on Linux, they may not be as widespread as Qt and Gtk are, but they are used by many applications. And even with Qt/Gtk, their developers (especially Gtk) regard each major version as a separate library.

kaba0 4y ago
Sure, but then it is the job of those framework developers to.. abstract away the underlying display manager, so they should port their framework to support wayland as well, and application devs can just continue to write against this abstraction. I still see no problem here.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Those others - for better and worse have less developers. Having to figure out two different types of decorations is a mess that they don't have time to, so I can't blame them for picking one.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    That is inherent in open-source/bazaar-style development, and we can all help wherever we can. There is no entity like Apple/Microsoft mandating that we change to Y from X.

account42 4y ago

Please list all distros that still have a GTK or Qt version that is ABI-compatible with one that was available 20 years ago.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Debian continues to package GTK 2.0 which is ABI compatible with GTK 2.0 ... from 20 years ago.
- account42 4y ago
  That's impressive, but being an optional install and not even available on most distros doesn't really make it a useful target for applications that just want to show some window decorations. I also doubt that Debian have ported GTK 2 to Wayland or added client side decorations to GTK 2 so its even less useful in the context of this discussion.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    New applications would not target GTK 2, obviously. But that's not what you asked. GTK 2 was EOL'ed many years ago, and hence will never have Wayland support nor CSD. But there are dozens of existing applications in Debian's repos that still use it. Wayland is going to have an X server for the foreseeable future, because otherwise the overwhelming majority of GUI applications for Linux will not run there.