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By that logic "not supporting" equals "actively sabotaging"? I'm no Gnome developer, but the OSS landscape is fragmented enough as is and the number of develope

by bzzzt 4y ago

By that logic "not supporting" equals "actively sabotaging"? I'm no Gnome developer, but the OSS landscape is fragmented enough as is and the number of developers is very limited, so not supporting something that does not help your project looks excusable. It hasn't stopped Blender from supporting Wayland in this case anyway.

tinus_hn 4y ago
Blender is not using GTK for that so those things have nothing to do with each other.
dzaima 4y ago
The discussion[0] pretty explicitly says that support isn't planned, so it's not just that there is a lack of developers. Either way, I would assume that the effort needed to add server-side decorations to GNOME would be way less than the combined effort of having every single GUI toolkit & program directly using Wayland needing to draw their own decorations (in addition to resulting in a better end-user experience of having native decorations everywhere). [0]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217
chrismorgan 4y ago
The sabotaging I speak of is in other things too; this is just the proximate example of their entire approach which began destructive through negligence, but seems to have become weaponised somewhere along the way so that although I doubt any involved intend malice, they have become complicit in organisational malice: because GNOME is not the only player in the space, but they’ve tried to take it over and are doing harm to everything else with their policies. In this case: they’ve taken something that used to work across the board under X, and which is still used extensively, and for which there have been a number of well-reasoned pleas, and actively removed it by refusing to implement it under Wayland, although it should be fairly straightforward to do and is required for a parity that a great many apps and users desire and some apps need, and although not doing it forces apps that don’t (perhaps can’t) use GTK and don’t need client-side decorations to produce worse results. (And requiring GTK is nasty for non-GNOME apps anyway.)
traverseda 4y ago
Well my understanding is that pull requests are not welcome here, so it's not like any of these developers can even fix gnome's architectural problems for them.
xg15 4y ago
I mean, they seem to have a whole sort of manifest on client-side rendering, so this very much seems like an intentional decision. https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/

by bzzzt 4y ago

tinus_hn 4y ago

Blender is not using GTK for that so those things have nothing to do with each other.

dzaima 4y ago

The discussion[0] pretty explicitly says that support isn't planned, so it's not just that there is a lack of developers. Either way, I would assume that the effort needed to add server-side decorations to GNOME would be way less than the combined effort of having every single GUI toolkit & program directly using Wayland needing to draw their own decorations (in addition to resulting in a better end-user experience of having native decorations everywhere). [0]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217

chrismorgan 4y ago

The sabotaging I speak of is in other things too; this is just the proximate example of their entire approach which began destructive through negligence, but seems to have become weaponised somewhere along the way so that although I doubt any involved intend malice, they have become complicit in organisational malice: because GNOME is not the only player in the space, but they’ve tried to take it over and are doing harm to everything else with their policies. In this case: they’ve taken something that used to work across the board under X, and which is still used extensively, and for which there have been a number of well-reasoned pleas, and actively removed it by refusing to implement it under Wayland, although it should be fairly straightforward to do and is required for a parity that a great many apps and users desire and some apps need, and although not doing it forces apps that don’t (perhaps can’t) use GTK and don’t need client-side decorations to produce worse results. (And requiring GTK is nasty for non-GNOME apps anyway.)

traverseda 4y ago

Well my understanding is that pull requests are not welcome here, so it's not like any of these developers can even fix gnome's architectural problems for them.

xg15 4y ago

I mean, they seem to have a whole sort of manifest on client-side rendering, so this very much seems like an intentional decision. https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/