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I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". So no, they are not "the" worst conditions imaginable, but they are as bad as the system allows.

I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". So no, they are not "the" worst conditions imaginable, but they are as bad as the system allows. Which is still pretty bad. >>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. No one is arguing against that. The problem is that prison populations are being used for profit making - anyone can contract with a prison to use their labour to make whatever thing you want to do or make. So companies use prisoners to make products that they then sell for profit. Which obviously creates perverse incentives for prisons to have a large workforce they can hire out for profit. No one is arguing against using prisoners to clear out public pathways or whatever. >> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail. Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of this argument because people use it to excuse all kinds of things. "People get beaten up in prison? It's not a vacation, it's jail". "Prison rape happens? It's not a vacation, it's jail". And so on and so on. Like, yeah, it's not a vacation, but a basic standard of human dignity should be allowed.

pessimizer 4y ago
>>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. > No one is arguing against that. There's nothing wrong with arguing against that, and there are plenty of people who argue against that.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Sure, and I mean even I can make some convincing arguments against it too - but(in my experience) that's not what most arguments are about, it's about the profit motive and exploitation, not about "putting people to work on public works projects". Maybe I shouldn't have said "no one", that's my bad.
dolni 4y ago
> I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". Why should conditions be any better than what is legally required? If you have a problem with what the law requires, fine. The law should describe some reasonable standard. But making jail conditions "better" doesn't happen by magic. It requires effort and it costs money.
- uoaei 4y ago
  Ah yes, perfect riposte, scold the person with no legislative power about how they just have to change the law.
  - dolni 4y ago
    As opposed to cheering on the person who has no power to change prison conditions? Perfect riposte, indeed.
- JulianChastain 4y ago
  Do you think the purpose of prison is primarily to rehabilitate prisoners into society or to give just, deserved punishment for offenses to society? If you agree with the former, then making conditions better than the legal baseline could humanize the prison population and increase their chances and motivation to reassimilate themselves into society. If you agree with the latter, then I don't see a good argument for bettering the conditions of prisoners. From a basic utilitarian standpoint, it seems very clear that policy guided by the the rehabilitation principle will result in better outcomes than policy guided by the punishment principles.
  - dolni 4y ago
    I agree with neither of your false dichotomy points. The purpose of prison, first and foremost, is to protect society from people who are dangerous. Rehabilitation is secondary to that. Additionally it is important to call out that humane does not mean nice or pleasant. Prison does not need to be cruel. But it should absolutely not be something that people enjoy, because then you create perverse incentives.

pessimizer 4y ago

>>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. > No one is arguing against that. There's nothing wrong with arguing against that, and there are plenty of people who argue against that.

gambiting 4y ago
Sure, and I mean even I can make some convincing arguments against it too - but(in my experience) that's not what most arguments are about, it's about the profit motive and exploitation, not about "putting people to work on public works projects". Maybe I shouldn't have said "no one", that's my bad.

dolni 4y ago

> I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". Why should conditions be any better than what is legally required? If you have a problem with what the law requires, fine. The law should describe some reasonable standard. But making jail conditions "better" doesn't happen by magic. It requires effort and it costs money.

uoaei 4y ago
Ah yes, perfect riposte, scold the person with no legislative power about how they just have to change the law.
- dolni 4y ago
  As opposed to cheering on the person who has no power to change prison conditions? Perfect riposte, indeed.
JulianChastain 4y ago
Do you think the purpose of prison is primarily to rehabilitate prisoners into society or to give just, deserved punishment for offenses to society? If you agree with the former, then making conditions better than the legal baseline could humanize the prison population and increase their chances and motivation to reassimilate themselves into society. If you agree with the latter, then I don't see a good argument for bettering the conditions of prisoners. From a basic utilitarian standpoint, it seems very clear that policy guided by the the rehabilitation principle will result in better outcomes than policy guided by the punishment principles.
- dolni 4y ago
  I agree with neither of your false dichotomy points. The purpose of prison, first and foremost, is to protect society from people who are dangerous. Rehabilitation is secondary to that. Additionally it is important to call out that humane does not mean nice or pleasant. Prison does not need to be cruel. But it should absolutely not be something that people enjoy, because then you create perverse incentives.