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Russia doesn't publish its incarceration stats, apparently. Also, would the millions of Uighurs in concentration camps in China be considered "incarcerated" or

Russia doesn't publish its incarceration stats, apparently. Also, would the millions of Uighurs in concentration camps in China be considered "incarcerated" or is this simply a definition left to non-autocratic democracies?

rags2riches 4y ago
The Wagner PMC is recruiting cannon fodder for the war in Ukraine in Russian prisons. The Russian incarceration numbers may be improving drastically as we speak!
trasz 4y ago
Even Zenz and associated media don’t claim there are millions. And yes, even if you add them it still looks much better than US.
- areyousure 4y ago
  In case anyone is curious, one of the largest numbers claimed by Adrian Zenz is "1.8 million" in the following article: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-genocidal-sterilization-xinjiang/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-... > Since 2017, up to 1.8 million Uighurs, Kazaks, and other Turkic minority groups in the northwestern Chinese region of Xinjiang have been swept up in what is probably the largest incarceration of an ethnoreligious minority since the Holocaust.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Adding the right minority groups will give you however high number you need, but even he admits it’s not just Uighurs. And the result is still better than US incarceration ratios. (Or course this about largest incarceration is bullshit too, but hey, he needs to be making money somehow, right?)
FriedrichN 4y ago
One would think think detaining a million Uyghurs would equate to incarceration. I certainly do think so. But on the other hand, if you need to compare yourself to countries such as China and Russia and have your defense be "well at least we don't have concentration camps", you know you have work to do. Maybe the US doesn't have the highest incarceration rate, be it per capita or absolute, but it does have the highest rate of incarceration of any modern 'free' society. And that is a shame.
- pfortuny 4y ago
  And, now that you mention it: Guantánamo is still a thing.
thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
'It's not as bad as genocide' is not a hugely convincing argument.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Oh, of course not, I'm just pointing out that none of those countries are even on the list; therefore, the list is meaningless.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
(I'm not pro genocide) 1M / 1.4B is increasing the incaceration rate by 70.
dirtyid 4y ago
> be considered "incarcerated" Even accepting grossly inflated propaganda figures, ~2M were detained over multiple years, with the vast majority on short sentences (months). We're talking stat shifts of low 100,000s locked up for months spread over 5 years. It wouldn't have shifted PRC per capita internment figures to be comparable with the US. Or that by all accounts mass internment phase is over, majority have been released, extra problematic elements that couldn't be fixed in a few months/years are removed from society with lifetime sentences. The TLDR is "mass internment" is a temporary tool in PRC for deradicalization initiatives with deadlines in mind, not permanent conditions supported by prison industrial complexes like in the US. XJ securitization was expensive, not profitable.
pessimizer 4y ago
[flagged]
- noduerme 4y ago
  [flagged]

rags2riches 4y ago

The Wagner PMC is recruiting cannon fodder for the war in Ukraine in Russian prisons. The Russian incarceration numbers may be improving drastically as we speak!

trasz 4y ago

Even Zenz and associated media don’t claim there are millions. And yes, even if you add them it still looks much better than US.

areyousure 4y ago
In case anyone is curious, one of the largest numbers claimed by Adrian Zenz is "1.8 million" in the following article: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-genocidal-sterilization-xinjiang/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-... > Since 2017, up to 1.8 million Uighurs, Kazaks, and other Turkic minority groups in the northwestern Chinese region of Xinjiang have been swept up in what is probably the largest incarceration of an ethnoreligious minority since the Holocaust.
- trasz 4y ago
  Adding the right minority groups will give you however high number you need, but even he admits it’s not just Uighurs. And the result is still better than US incarceration ratios. (Or course this about largest incarceration is bullshit too, but hey, he needs to be making money somehow, right?)

FriedrichN 4y ago

One would think think detaining a million Uyghurs would equate to incarceration. I certainly do think so. But on the other hand, if you need to compare yourself to countries such as China and Russia and have your defense be "well at least we don't have concentration camps", you know you have work to do. Maybe the US doesn't have the highest incarceration rate, be it per capita or absolute, but it does have the highest rate of incarceration of any modern 'free' society. And that is a shame.

pfortuny 4y ago
And, now that you mention it: Guantánamo is still a thing.

thrwyoilarticle 4y ago

'It's not as bad as genocide' is not a hugely convincing argument.

noduerme 4y ago
Oh, of course not, I'm just pointing out that none of those countries are even on the list; therefore, the list is meaningless.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

(I'm not pro genocide) 1M / 1.4B is increasing the incaceration rate by 70.

dirtyid 4y ago

> be considered "incarcerated" Even accepting grossly inflated propaganda figures, ~2M were detained over multiple years, with the vast majority on short sentences (months). We're talking stat shifts of low 100,000s locked up for months spread over 5 years. It wouldn't have shifted PRC per capita internment figures to be comparable with the US. Or that by all accounts mass internment phase is over, majority have been released, extra problematic elements that couldn't be fixed in a few months/years are removed from society with lifetime sentences. The TLDR is "mass internment" is a temporary tool in PRC for deradicalization initiatives with deadlines in mind, not permanent conditions supported by prison industrial complexes like in the US. XJ securitization was expensive, not profitable.

pessimizer 4y ago

[flagged]

noduerme 4y ago
[flagged]