4 ms·

> perhaps the US is a violent society and it is doing a good job at keeping the violent behind bars? The real question should be *why is the US "a violent soci

> perhaps the US is a violent society and it is doing a good job at keeping the violent behind bars? The real question should be *why is the US "a violent society"? I think your post is a good example of what I think the problem in the USA is: the belief that the world is divided up in good guys and bad guys and you just need to lock up all the bad guys. But it's not like that. Violence, including incarceration, brings other violence. Poverty, inequality, ignorance, lack of health support for drug users, all bring violence. The US would definitely have enough money to turn deprived neighbourhoods into less deprived communities, which means less violence. But it doesn't do so for ideological reasons connected to this belief of good vs. bad. Sorry if I used your comment as an example, I do not mean it as an attack. But do ask yourself, why is the US a violent society and not Switzerland?

armitron 4y ago
Is Switzerland riddled with violent gangs? Is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states that continuously smuggle people and drugs into the country? Does it have big chunks of the population living in inner city crime-infested ghettos? These are hard problems and can't be imagined away with "The US would definitely have enough money to turn deprived neighbourhoods into less deprived communities, which means less violence". We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF and Chicago and Seattle and LA. If that's the world you want to live in, all the best (but it won't be long before you start running for the exit).
- qlm 4y ago
  > Is Switzerland riddled with violent gangs? Is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states that continuously smuggle people and drugs into the country? Does it have big chunks of the population living in inner city crime-infested ghettos? Why does the US have these problems? They didn't come from nowhere. > We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF and Chicago and Seattle and LA. Can you expand on this?
- meigwilym 4y ago
  Would you mind sharing sources on what was done and what the (un?)intended consequences were in SF, Chicago, Seattle and LA?
- ch_sm 4y ago
  It’s interesting that you bring up theses specific questions. Ask yourself: why is the U.S. riddled with violent gangs? Why is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states? Why do large chunks live in inner city crime-infested ghettos (and why are there ghettos in the inner cities in the first place)? Many would argue that all these are home-made problems. Imprisoning the victims of this system can’t conceivably be the solution, and might in fact only make it worse (mass imprisonment has many bad societal effects).
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Your government policy has turned your cities into crime infested ghettos. Even diverse and poor countries like India are managing to avoid this problem. US doesn't have some magical and unique set of challenges, apart from political disfunction, that can't be found anywhere else in the world. > We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF I must have missed something - SF solved the housing crisis, everyone could get a an education and a decent job but crime remained?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- cestith 4y ago
  Chicago, San Francisco, and LA are far from the most dangerous cities in the United States. Why are they your talking points?
nverno 4y ago
> Poverty, inequality, ignorance, lack of health support for drug users, all bring violence. This is certainly not generally true. There are many countries with much greater poverty, inequality, and ignorance (at least measured by education) than the US that have much less violent crime. I'd imagine having more drug users per capita has a significant effect on violent crime everywhere however.
- balls187 4y ago
  Can you provide a source for assertion? The violence is fueled by two things: income inequality and the prevalence of guns. Any country with those two factors will have a problem with violence; the fact that the US is the most civilized country among that list (and likely sits atop that list) is what is so damning.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    The largest single chunk of the violence is just the settling of drug industry business disputes. If the people doing the shooting had badges and got their pay stubs on state letterhead most people here wouldn't blink twice. Whereas you may lean on an expensive and complicated court system to send an employee of the state to apply violence (or threats thereof) to someone who had wronged you until they right their wrong people in the drug industry has no such luxury since their disputes will not he heard by a court. Likewise they must DIY it. That means home invasions, shootings, etc, etc. Back before people in these lines of work shot at each other (have you ever tried doing a drive by on horseback with a 6 shooter, doesn't work very well) over these sorts of disputes people would round up friends and beat each other up or people would torch houses. Bringing our massive illegal economy out of the shadows would clean up a huge fraction of the violence by replacing a lot of it with threat of state violence. See prohibition for an example of the reverse case.
  - nverno 4y ago
    > Can you provide a source for assertion? I was thinking of Indonesia, only because I lived there for a while, but those are factors in nearly every country. > The violence is fueled by two things: income inequality and the prevalence of guns. I don't think either of these are what cause the violence (maybe they throw fuel on the fire as you're saying though). People can be just as violent without weapons, and just as greedy when they are on the top. They just become more dangerous with money, guns, and lawyers.
Ligma123 4y ago
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Well done on expressing your racism in a subtle manner. As opposed to the previous times you've expressed it like a brick through a window.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    The FBI is racist and fabricated these stats, as we all know.
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      If we're erecting dumb strawmen, let me erect one in the shape of the parent comment - African-Americans are over-represented in crime, because they're just like that. Quod erat dumbonstrandum.
      - parkingrift 4y ago
        You do know that there are other demographics than race?
        EdwardDiego 4y ago
        All of which were mentioned by a grandparent comment, then quoted and commented on as being insufficient to understand "who" is committing crime, by the person I was replying to. If you can't see what their gist was, well, that's a you thing.
        parkingrift 4y ago
        Nope. Grandparent comment asked why the US is a violent society. Absolute top comment on the chain is just outright incarceration numbers. No one asked anything about race until you came along.
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
thanatos519 4y ago
> the belief that the world is divided up in good guys and bad guys and you just need to lock up all the bad guys. Reminded me of this quote: If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
- boring_twenties 4y ago
  OT but does anyone have this quote in what I presume is the original Russian? edit: Found it: Если б это было так просто! — что где-то есть чёрные люди, злокозненно творящие чёрные дела, и надо только отличить их от остальных и уничтожить. Но линия, разделяющая добро и зло, пересекает сердце каждого человека. И кто уничтожит кусок своего сердца? From https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93_(%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC_1) https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BF...

armitron 4y ago

Is Switzerland riddled with violent gangs? Is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states that continuously smuggle people and drugs into the country? Does it have big chunks of the population living in inner city crime-infested ghettos? These are hard problems and can't be imagined away with "The US would definitely have enough money to turn deprived neighbourhoods into less deprived communities, which means less violence". We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF and Chicago and Seattle and LA. If that's the world you want to live in, all the best (but it won't be long before you start running for the exit).

qlm 4y ago
> Is Switzerland riddled with violent gangs? Is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states that continuously smuggle people and drugs into the country? Does it have big chunks of the population living in inner city crime-infested ghettos? Why does the US have these problems? They didn't come from nowhere. > We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF and Chicago and Seattle and LA. Can you expand on this?
meigwilym 4y ago
Would you mind sharing sources on what was done and what the (un?)intended consequences were in SF, Chicago, Seattle and LA?
ch_sm 4y ago
It’s interesting that you bring up theses specific questions. Ask yourself: why is the U.S. riddled with violent gangs? Why is it bordered by failed narco-controlled states? Why do large chunks live in inner city crime-infested ghettos (and why are there ghettos in the inner cities in the first place)? Many would argue that all these are home-made problems. Imprisoning the victims of this system can’t conceivably be the solution, and might in fact only make it worse (mass imprisonment has many bad societal effects).
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Your government policy has turned your cities into crime infested ghettos. Even diverse and poor countries like India are managing to avoid this problem. US doesn't have some magical and unique set of challenges, apart from political disfunction, that can't be found anywhere else in the world. > We saw what well-meaning but supremely naive ideologically-driven policies lead to, in SF I must have missed something - SF solved the housing crisis, everyone could get a an education and a decent job but crime remained?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
cestith 4y ago
Chicago, San Francisco, and LA are far from the most dangerous cities in the United States. Why are they your talking points?

nverno 4y ago

> Poverty, inequality, ignorance, lack of health support for drug users, all bring violence. This is certainly not generally true. There are many countries with much greater poverty, inequality, and ignorance (at least measured by education) than the US that have much less violent crime. I'd imagine having more drug users per capita has a significant effect on violent crime everywhere however.

balls187 4y ago
Can you provide a source for assertion? The violence is fueled by two things: income inequality and the prevalence of guns. Any country with those two factors will have a problem with violence; the fact that the US is the most civilized country among that list (and likely sits atop that list) is what is so damning.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  The largest single chunk of the violence is just the settling of drug industry business disputes. If the people doing the shooting had badges and got their pay stubs on state letterhead most people here wouldn't blink twice. Whereas you may lean on an expensive and complicated court system to send an employee of the state to apply violence (or threats thereof) to someone who had wronged you until they right their wrong people in the drug industry has no such luxury since their disputes will not he heard by a court. Likewise they must DIY it. That means home invasions, shootings, etc, etc. Back before people in these lines of work shot at each other (have you ever tried doing a drive by on horseback with a 6 shooter, doesn't work very well) over these sorts of disputes people would round up friends and beat each other up or people would torch houses. Bringing our massive illegal economy out of the shadows would clean up a huge fraction of the violence by replacing a lot of it with threat of state violence. See prohibition for an example of the reverse case.
- nverno 4y ago
  > Can you provide a source for assertion? I was thinking of Indonesia, only because I lived there for a while, but those are factors in nearly every country. > The violence is fueled by two things: income inequality and the prevalence of guns. I don't think either of these are what cause the violence (maybe they throw fuel on the fire as you're saying though). People can be just as violent without weapons, and just as greedy when they are on the top. They just become more dangerous with money, guns, and lawyers.

Ligma123 4y ago

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Well done on expressing your racism in a subtle manner. As opposed to the previous times you've expressed it like a brick through a window.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- parkingrift 4y ago
  The FBI is racist and fabricated these stats, as we all know.
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    If we're erecting dumb strawmen, let me erect one in the shape of the parent comment - African-Americans are over-represented in crime, because they're just like that. Quod erat dumbonstrandum.
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      You do know that there are other demographics than race?
      - EdwardDiego 4y ago
        All of which were mentioned by a grandparent comment, then quoted and commented on as being insufficient to understand "who" is committing crime, by the person I was replying to. If you can't see what their gist was, well, that's a you thing.
        parkingrift 4y ago
        Nope. Grandparent comment asked why the US is a violent society. Absolute top comment on the chain is just outright incarceration numbers. No one asked anything about race until you came along.

AlgorithmicTime 4y ago

thanatos519 4y ago

> the belief that the world is divided up in good guys and bad guys and you just need to lock up all the bad guys. Reminded me of this quote: If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

boring_twenties 4y ago
OT but does anyone have this quote in what I presume is the original Russian? edit: Found it: Если б это было так просто! — что где-то есть чёрные люди, злокозненно творящие чёрные дела, и надо только отличить их от остальных и уничтожить. Но линия, разделяющая добро и зло, пересекает сердце каждого человека. И кто уничтожит кусок своего сердца? From https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93_(%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC_1) https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BF...