5 ms·

I'm not sure if LGBT rights is an example or a counterexample for this phenomenon. A lot of countries made huge strides in that area in the last 0-3 decades, wh

I'm not sure if LGBT rights is an example or a counterexample for this phenomenon. A lot of countries made huge strides in that area in the last 0-3 decades, which wouldn't have happened if nothing about all the old people (which are overwhelmingly in power) changed, especially because over the same period politicians became older (so the age cohort in power stayed roughly the same in lots of places). However, when you do look at polls by age group it seems to me like the changes in old adults are rather modest, while young people overwhelmingly support.

xboxnolifes 4y ago
> I'm not sure if LGBT rights is an example or a counterexample for this phenomenon. A lot of countries made huge strides in that area in the last 0-3 decades, which wouldn't have happened if nothing about all the old people (which are overwhelmingly in power) changed Older people may be in government/business power, but one could argue that LGBT rights rose because those people aged out of the majority/worker culture group. Even if the age group in power is old and possibly even disagrees with the view, placating the masses must be done one way or the other, and codifying LGBT rights is an absurdly cheap way to do so, considering the other political topics.
scotty79 4y ago
I think this anomaly might be indication that LGBT rights issue actually have great support from the people in power because they don't really care but it's convenient topic to draw away minds from income equality. It's not like the society made a great strides in how we imagine Santa Clause when Coca Cola pushed the current vision of him. Or it was not a great stride when people started talking about personal carbon footprint promoted by BP to draw away the blame from corporations. It might be just a coincidence that LGBT rights issue rose to prominence right after Occupy Wallstreet was squashed with nearly military force. Or it might not be.
- jawarner 4y ago
  Are those two events connected? They both happened in the same decade and received some press. That's all I can come up with. And both things you mention -- LGBT rights and class consciousness -- have been around for a while.
  - soundnote 4y ago
    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great... These arew for racism, but similar hockeysticks with the exact same timing exist for other social justice topics. Media, as one, started harping on identity politics and never let their foot off the gas.
    - jawarner 4y ago
      Isn’t that because of the BLM movement? I’m not seeing how any of these events are connected.
      - soundnote 4y ago
        2010: Fuck the banks Occupy gets sunk. 201x: Rainbow floats sponsored by J.P. Morgan, Angela Davis talks sponsored by Shell Corp.
        jawarner 4y ago
        If you're just saying that rainbow capitalism is in alignment with capitalists' interests, and anti-capitalism movements are not, then that makes sense.
        soundnote 4y ago
        Yes. Social justice movements are perfect channels for champagne socialism. The activists get to fight and fight and fight and the problem never goes away. They get to feel like they're such good people and have no need to concern themselves with whether their methods work. (Their allegiance is to their methods first, ostensible causes decidedly second)
dahart 4y ago
It might be even easier to see & understand this phenomenon by looking at the history of rights for women and black people. These also took generational turnover, and attitudes among the older generations changed more slowly, and we’re still not even done yet. I can see this right now pretty clearly between my adult family/friends and our children, where the adults are still getting used to and learning how to talk about gay rights, are squeamish and sharing cringy talking points about transgender rights, meanwhile the kids are all fully on-board with equal rights for all and just have no problems with non-binary gender or sexuality. It’s funny after multiple rounds of this happening over multiple centuries that we still have trouble actually standing by our motto of liberty and justice for all. These are, yes, examples of cultural belief changing slowly and happening less because people changed their minds and more because younger people came to a new conclusion. I’m curious what you meant about it maybe being a counter-example, what did you mean there?

xboxnolifes 4y ago

> I'm not sure if LGBT rights is an example or a counterexample for this phenomenon. A lot of countries made huge strides in that area in the last 0-3 decades, which wouldn't have happened if nothing about all the old people (which are overwhelmingly in power) changed Older people may be in government/business power, but one could argue that LGBT rights rose because those people aged out of the majority/worker culture group. Even if the age group in power is old and possibly even disagrees with the view, placating the masses must be done one way or the other, and codifying LGBT rights is an absurdly cheap way to do so, considering the other political topics.

scotty79 4y ago

I think this anomaly might be indication that LGBT rights issue actually have great support from the people in power because they don't really care but it's convenient topic to draw away minds from income equality. It's not like the society made a great strides in how we imagine Santa Clause when Coca Cola pushed the current vision of him. Or it was not a great stride when people started talking about personal carbon footprint promoted by BP to draw away the blame from corporations. It might be just a coincidence that LGBT rights issue rose to prominence right after Occupy Wallstreet was squashed with nearly military force. Or it might not be.

jawarner 4y ago
Are those two events connected? They both happened in the same decade and received some press. That's all I can come up with. And both things you mention -- LGBT rights and class consciousness -- have been around for a while.
- soundnote 4y ago
  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great... These arew for racism, but similar hockeysticks with the exact same timing exist for other social justice topics. Media, as one, started harping on identity politics and never let their foot off the gas.
  - jawarner 4y ago
    Isn’t that because of the BLM movement? I’m not seeing how any of these events are connected.
    - soundnote 4y ago
      2010: Fuck the banks Occupy gets sunk. 201x: Rainbow floats sponsored by J.P. Morgan, Angela Davis talks sponsored by Shell Corp.
      - jawarner 4y ago
        If you're just saying that rainbow capitalism is in alignment with capitalists' interests, and anti-capitalism movements are not, then that makes sense.
        soundnote 4y ago
        Yes. Social justice movements are perfect channels for champagne socialism. The activists get to fight and fight and fight and the problem never goes away. They get to feel like they're such good people and have no need to concern themselves with whether their methods work. (Their allegiance is to their methods first, ostensible causes decidedly second)

dahart 4y ago

It might be even easier to see & understand this phenomenon by looking at the history of rights for women and black people. These also took generational turnover, and attitudes among the older generations changed more slowly, and we’re still not even done yet. I can see this right now pretty clearly between my adult family/friends and our children, where the adults are still getting used to and learning how to talk about gay rights, are squeamish and sharing cringy talking points about transgender rights, meanwhile the kids are all fully on-board with equal rights for all and just have no problems with non-binary gender or sexuality. It’s funny after multiple rounds of this happening over multiple centuries that we still have trouble actually standing by our motto of liberty and justice for all. These are, yes, examples of cultural belief changing slowly and happening less because people changed their minds and more because younger people came to a new conclusion. I’m curious what you meant about it maybe being a counter-example, what did you mean there?