4 ms·

I think most of the faults atributed to Capitalism are really Democracy not working properly. For profit prisons wouldn't even be a thing if corporate interests

I think most of the faults atributed to Capitalism are really Democracy not working properly. For profit prisons wouldn't even be a thing if corporate interests didn't have so much power over elected officials.

usednet 4y ago
Corporate interests control policy through money. How is that not directly related to capitalism?
- rjtavares 4y ago
  The check for capitalism should be democracy (through regulation). If money controls policy, then capitalism is working better than democracy. To balance it you either weaken capitalism or strengthen democracy. I think the latter is a better solution.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    How do you strengthen democracy against capital if capital accumulation directly results in political power under capitalism? You can't strengthen democracy against capital interests without weakening capitalism. Regulations literally weaken capitalism. Money is power. Democracy aims to distribute power to the people. Capitalism results in the accumulation of money by a few individuals. If you're arguing we should balance this by reducing the power differential present in money, I'm all for that. But that means providing housing, medical care, food and a dignified quality of life to everyone and democratizing work places so money accumulation becomes largely a status symbol and not an alternative pathway to political power.
  - yunwal 4y ago
    The 2 are diametrically opposed. While money exists, there exists a way to corrupt people. While huge concentrations of wealth exist, there exist ways to corrupt almost anyone. Even people who don’t take bribes can be gradually manipulated into holding certain views via marketing/lobbying
mschuster91 4y ago
> I think most of the faults atributed to Capitalism are really Democracy not working properly. Democracy in capitalism will always be biased to the interests of the capitalist class thanks to a lot of issues: - Mass media that is under the editorial control of the super rich (Sinclair, Murdoch, German Axel Springer, Berlusconi, Bezos, ...) - financial contributions towards political campaigns, including indirect contributions such as dirt-digging smear campaigns - financial contributions in the form of party sponsoring (e.g. sponsoring rallies and conventions) - higher-up party cadres and elected government officials being promised high-paying jobs in the private sector after leaving office (e.g. here in Germany, Gerhard Schröder who sold us out to Russia) - most higher-up party cadres come from privileged families - someone who has to exit school at 16 to help make rent doesn't have the time to involve themselves in politics, nor do they have the network that people have whose parents already have been in politics. That's the reason why so many politicians are so detached from the realities of the working classes - and additionally, their "connections" that help them rise usually want their returns when the cadre reaches influential circles.
- rjtavares 4y ago
  I agree with all those problems. But what are the solutions?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    We need to radically transform our economy. Critical infrastructure (electricity grids, power generation, gas grids, oil refineries and pipelines, telecommunication, rail, road and air transportation, airports, railway grids) must be nationalized and serve the people and companies instead of the bottom lines of their owners, news media must first be nationalized and then be re-organized as an independent public trust (similar to PBS or the German ARD/ZDF TV/radio networks). As an intermediate, at least media regulation needs to step up and mandate fair, unbiased and truthful reporting and a clear, visible separation of commentary and entertainment.
    - fallingknife 4y ago
bearmode 4y ago
This is a direct, and expected, result of capitalism.
- least 4y ago
  Exploitation of human beings is not a trait of capitalism; it is a trait of human beings. You create any sort of system that can be gamed to get an unfair advantage or privilege and there will be people that will exploit it. You can nationalize all commerce and the same issue exists. You democratize all corporations and the same issue exists. You can't get rid of all incentives. A government is an innately alluring entity for corruption. This is why regardless of how you organize your government or what economic model you adopt, you find corruption and oligarchs. The best you can do is to have a system that is adaptable (i.e. laws can and do change) and a system that reduces the incentives for exploitation or limit the scope of which it can be exploited.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > You democratize all corporations and the same issue exists Does it really? I have never heard of a cooperative exploiting its workers the way amazon does.
    - least 4y ago
      Employees are not the only vector for exploitation and democratizing a corporation does not change that.
      - yunwal 4y ago
        who are co-ops exploiting exactly?

usednet 4y ago

Corporate interests control policy through money. How is that not directly related to capitalism?

rjtavares 4y ago
The check for capitalism should be democracy (through regulation). If money controls policy, then capitalism is working better than democracy. To balance it you either weaken capitalism or strengthen democracy. I think the latter is a better solution.
- hnbad 4y ago
  How do you strengthen democracy against capital if capital accumulation directly results in political power under capitalism? You can't strengthen democracy against capital interests without weakening capitalism. Regulations literally weaken capitalism. Money is power. Democracy aims to distribute power to the people. Capitalism results in the accumulation of money by a few individuals. If you're arguing we should balance this by reducing the power differential present in money, I'm all for that. But that means providing housing, medical care, food and a dignified quality of life to everyone and democratizing work places so money accumulation becomes largely a status symbol and not an alternative pathway to political power.
- yunwal 4y ago
  The 2 are diametrically opposed. While money exists, there exists a way to corrupt people. While huge concentrations of wealth exist, there exist ways to corrupt almost anyone. Even people who don’t take bribes can be gradually manipulated into holding certain views via marketing/lobbying

mschuster91 4y ago

> I think most of the faults atributed to Capitalism are really Democracy not working properly. Democracy in capitalism will always be biased to the interests of the capitalist class thanks to a lot of issues: - Mass media that is under the editorial control of the super rich (Sinclair, Murdoch, German Axel Springer, Berlusconi, Bezos, ...) - financial contributions towards political campaigns, including indirect contributions such as dirt-digging smear campaigns - financial contributions in the form of party sponsoring (e.g. sponsoring rallies and conventions) - higher-up party cadres and elected government officials being promised high-paying jobs in the private sector after leaving office (e.g. here in Germany, Gerhard Schröder who sold us out to Russia) - most higher-up party cadres come from privileged families - someone who has to exit school at 16 to help make rent doesn't have the time to involve themselves in politics, nor do they have the network that people have whose parents already have been in politics. That's the reason why so many politicians are so detached from the realities of the working classes - and additionally, their "connections" that help them rise usually want their returns when the cadre reaches influential circles.

rjtavares 4y ago
I agree with all those problems. But what are the solutions?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  We need to radically transform our economy. Critical infrastructure (electricity grids, power generation, gas grids, oil refineries and pipelines, telecommunication, rail, road and air transportation, airports, railway grids) must be nationalized and serve the people and companies instead of the bottom lines of their owners, news media must first be nationalized and then be re-organized as an independent public trust (similar to PBS or the German ARD/ZDF TV/radio networks). As an intermediate, at least media regulation needs to step up and mandate fair, unbiased and truthful reporting and a clear, visible separation of commentary and entertainment.
  - fallingknife 4y ago

bearmode 4y ago

This is a direct, and expected, result of capitalism.

least 4y ago
Exploitation of human beings is not a trait of capitalism; it is a trait of human beings. You create any sort of system that can be gamed to get an unfair advantage or privilege and there will be people that will exploit it. You can nationalize all commerce and the same issue exists. You democratize all corporations and the same issue exists. You can't get rid of all incentives. A government is an innately alluring entity for corruption. This is why regardless of how you organize your government or what economic model you adopt, you find corruption and oligarchs. The best you can do is to have a system that is adaptable (i.e. laws can and do change) and a system that reduces the incentives for exploitation or limit the scope of which it can be exploited.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > You democratize all corporations and the same issue exists Does it really? I have never heard of a cooperative exploiting its workers the way amazon does.
  - least 4y ago
    Employees are not the only vector for exploitation and democratizing a corporation does not change that.
    - yunwal 4y ago
      who are co-ops exploiting exactly?