5 ms·

I don't get it. It said nothing about actually providing food. At what point do people grow or get produce? Also why does race have to be brought into everythi

I don't get it. It said nothing about actually providing food. At what point do people grow or get produce? Also why does race have to be brought into everything? Why have the 8th principal? Looking at your board members all of you are white. All of your support staff is white. Why cant it be just a group of not racist people building a co-op, where all are welcome? Why does everything have to push race? Its exhausting. Don't get me wrong, I think its great you have a goal and are building something to help your community, I just don't understand some of the choices and I mean this in a "trying not to be a jerk" way.

zzzeek 4y ago
this article didn't seem to have anything about "race" in it except for a little box at the bottom. DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks. "Race", even though it's a only a social construct with no link to science in any way, is a big deal because people were enslaved for 300 years based on "race". After the Civil War, "race" was still used as an explicit or implicit basis for the next 100+ years to deny rights which continues to this day. So it's been a pretty long, big deal for a huge number of people who have been systematically denied equal status in society for centuries, it's pretty hard for any new endeavor to be equitable without taking an extremely long and hard look at how the endeavor interacts with this massive legacy that US society is only just beginning to attempt to extricate from. For sure it's exhausting. Think how exhausting it must be to be part of a group that's been systematically oppressed and terrorized for hundreds of years. You can choose not to give a shit because it's too "exhausting" to care, but that's not how food coops roll.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  "DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks" exactly my point, now you have to push it or you have to be worried about being automatically labeled racist. How condescending and insulting. "it's pretty hard for any new endeavor to be equitable without taking an extremely long and hard look at how the endeavor interacts with this massive legacy" No, its not. Just welcome all, you don't have to say anything, just be good people. I hear what you are saying but I don't think the answer is to constantly harp on it and I would think make it awkward for people of that race. Hey welcome to the coop, we really support Black people here. Sure they're black but they are people first and I have to think its tiresome from their point of view to constantly be reminded that white people see them as other. Its a superior point of view, look how noble we are, protecting the minorities with our power. I am sure the intent is good but I don't think it has the result that is intended. I have to take 4+ hours of classes this month at my employer to be told that I have to treat minorities well when much like this co-op 95% of leadership is white. Its condescending and I don't just mean to me. Just don't be racist and treat people like people. I guarantee just saying this has as much impact as the 4 hours of classes I have to take and their "8th principal" One of my classes I had to take at a very, very large company told me that if I help out a minority and they get offended to not argue back, but "sit there in my shame". Its reached insanity levels and I think having the opposite effect. At what point does it start driving people that are generally center based politically further to the right. I was surprised as a generally life long liberal when it started to do that to me. I'm not voting for Trump but for the first time in my life I'm likely voting for a Republican governor primarily because of this sort of stuff. Apologies for my rant, I guess it had been on my mind.
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    throughout your "rant" as you call it, and your concerns and personal experiences, one theme stands out that you are very concerned and fixated about how all of this is making you feel. I would propose that likely the first step in understanding anti-racist practices and attitudes is learning to think about how others feel about their experiences. "dont be racist" is not really the core of the problem, it's "listen to other people and their experiences". because you can't really, on your own, determine how to "not be racist" without listening to what the victims of actual racism have to say.
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      I hear what you are saying but again, being "anti-racist" is not a concern of mine. I am not a racist and generally treat everyone I meet the same. I don't have any intention of making "Anti-racism" a part of my personality or understanding it because it is very low on my list of concerns. People are people. They get hired to do a job, I chat with them superficially about what they did during the weekend and that's it. Nothing else really matters. Heck for the most part everyone is just a white name on a black box on zoom now anyway. "because you can't really, on your own, determine how to "not be racist"" I would argue that I very much can decide on my own. I don't need anyone telling me how to do it. Respectfully, the fact you think you do is a statement about you, not me.
      - zzzeek 4y ago
        Which goes back to the original point that you probably would not like belonging to a food coop very much.
        wonderwonder 4y ago
        lol, fair point
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Can someone decide how not to be anti-Semitic on their own?
- randomdata 4y ago
  > DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks. But the first principle this co-op claims to adhere to already denounces discrimination (including, but not limited to, race), recognizes fundamental human rights, and calls for open access to any person who wants to join[1]. They already can't be exclusionary jerks. If there is some kind of belief that they are lying about standing by the first principle, what reason is there to believe they will adhere to the eight principle? The redundancy seems pointless. [1] https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/7-cooperative-principles/ https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/7-cooperative-principles/
- Veelox 4y ago
  >"Race", even though it's a only a social construct with no link to science in any way, Can you flesh out this thought a little more? My first reading of this makes me think your trying to say race has no basis in scientific fact but that doesn't make any sense to me. What do you mean?
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    Oh man, you are in for a treat!
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism or for something less wordy https://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct-origins-census https://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago
this seems misdirected. there was only one paragraph at the end. i found the rest of the article insightful and interesting
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  I have hours of corporate anti discrimination classes I am trying to cram in before the deadline while trying to prepare for a major release. Its on my mind.
jeegsy 4y ago
DEI statements/policy are basically a 'requirement' for organizations these days. Slap on the by now boilerplate policies, do a few seminars (pay speakers in the circuit) and you should be able to more easily do business with other orgs who presumably as part of the requirement above are only allowed to do business with DEI-compliant orgs. A big old virtue signaling circle jerk and nothing important ever really changes.

zzzeek 4y ago

this article didn't seem to have anything about "race" in it except for a little box at the bottom. DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks. "Race", even though it's a only a social construct with no link to science in any way, is a big deal because people were enslaved for 300 years based on "race". After the Civil War, "race" was still used as an explicit or implicit basis for the next 100+ years to deny rights which continues to this day. So it's been a pretty long, big deal for a huge number of people who have been systematically denied equal status in society for centuries, it's pretty hard for any new endeavor to be equitable without taking an extremely long and hard look at how the endeavor interacts with this massive legacy that US society is only just beginning to attempt to extricate from. For sure it's exhausting. Think how exhausting it must be to be part of a group that's been systematically oppressed and terrorized for hundreds of years. You can choose not to give a shit because it's too "exhausting" to care, but that's not how food coops roll.

wonderwonder 4y ago
"DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks" exactly my point, now you have to push it or you have to be worried about being automatically labeled racist. How condescending and insulting. "it's pretty hard for any new endeavor to be equitable without taking an extremely long and hard look at how the endeavor interacts with this massive legacy" No, its not. Just welcome all, you don't have to say anything, just be good people. I hear what you are saying but I don't think the answer is to constantly harp on it and I would think make it awkward for people of that race. Hey welcome to the coop, we really support Black people here. Sure they're black but they are people first and I have to think its tiresome from their point of view to constantly be reminded that white people see them as other. Its a superior point of view, look how noble we are, protecting the minorities with our power. I am sure the intent is good but I don't think it has the result that is intended. I have to take 4+ hours of classes this month at my employer to be told that I have to treat minorities well when much like this co-op 95% of leadership is white. Its condescending and I don't just mean to me. Just don't be racist and treat people like people. I guarantee just saying this has as much impact as the 4 hours of classes I have to take and their "8th principal" One of my classes I had to take at a very, very large company told me that if I help out a minority and they get offended to not argue back, but "sit there in my shame". Its reached insanity levels and I think having the opposite effect. At what point does it start driving people that are generally center based politically further to the right. I was surprised as a generally life long liberal when it started to do that to me. I'm not voting for Trump but for the first time in my life I'm likely voting for a Republican governor primarily because of this sort of stuff. Apologies for my rant, I guess it had been on my mind.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  throughout your "rant" as you call it, and your concerns and personal experiences, one theme stands out that you are very concerned and fixated about how all of this is making you feel. I would propose that likely the first step in understanding anti-racist practices and attitudes is learning to think about how others feel about their experiences. "dont be racist" is not really the core of the problem, it's "listen to other people and their experiences". because you can't really, on your own, determine how to "not be racist" without listening to what the victims of actual racism have to say.
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    I hear what you are saying but again, being "anti-racist" is not a concern of mine. I am not a racist and generally treat everyone I meet the same. I don't have any intention of making "Anti-racism" a part of my personality or understanding it because it is very low on my list of concerns. People are people. They get hired to do a job, I chat with them superficially about what they did during the weekend and that's it. Nothing else really matters. Heck for the most part everyone is just a white name on a black box on zoom now anyway. "because you can't really, on your own, determine how to "not be racist"" I would argue that I very much can decide on my own. I don't need anyone telling me how to do it. Respectfully, the fact you think you do is a statement about you, not me.
    - zzzeek 4y ago
      Which goes back to the original point that you probably would not like belonging to a food coop very much.
      - wonderwonder 4y ago
        lol, fair point
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Can someone decide how not to be anti-Semitic on their own?
randomdata 4y ago
> DEI is very important for basically any organization that doesn't want to be known as a bunch of exclusionary jerks. But the first principle this co-op claims to adhere to already denounces discrimination (including, but not limited to, race), recognizes fundamental human rights, and calls for open access to any person who wants to join[1]. They already can't be exclusionary jerks. If there is some kind of belief that they are lying about standing by the first principle, what reason is there to believe they will adhere to the eight principle? The redundancy seems pointless. [1] https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/7-cooperative-principles/ https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/7-cooperative-principles/
Veelox 4y ago
>"Race", even though it's a only a social construct with no link to science in any way, Can you flesh out this thought a little more? My first reading of this makes me think your trying to say race has no basis in scientific fact but that doesn't make any sense to me. What do you mean?
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Oh man, you are in for a treat!
- zzzeek 4y ago
  start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism or for something less wordy https://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct-origins-census https://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago

this seems misdirected. there was only one paragraph at the end. i found the rest of the article insightful and interesting

wonderwonder 4y ago
I have hours of corporate anti discrimination classes I am trying to cram in before the deadline while trying to prepare for a major release. Its on my mind.

jeegsy 4y ago

DEI statements/policy are basically a 'requirement' for organizations these days. Slap on the by now boilerplate policies, do a few seminars (pay speakers in the circuit) and you should be able to more easily do business with other orgs who presumably as part of the requirement above are only allowed to do business with DEI-compliant orgs. A big old virtue signaling circle jerk and nothing important ever really changes.