8 ms·

What I'm curious about (and probably there are some good write ups about this somewhere) that how come modern Linux and modern Wine is better to run old Windows

What I'm curious about (and probably there are some good write ups about this somewhere) that how come modern Linux and modern Wine is better to run old Windows applications than modern Windows (7 to some extent but mostly 10&11). Did MS "intentionally" "left behind" certain APIs and system calls to sacrifice it for some greater good? Like I use Windows every day and have no problems at all. And I use Linux every day too for work. But by my experience if I come around an old Windows application (Vista, XP, 2000 or before) then I probably have a better chance to run it as it meant to be on Linux w/ Wine than on Windows 10/11

alar44 4y ago
My assumption is that it's because you're not running full blown Windows, Wine is just grabbing the stuff it needs.
johnny22 4y ago
it's way more likely to just be insufficient testing than anything on purpose imo. Those folks have deadlines just like everybody else.
nine_k 4y ago
The point of Wine is to run older Windows software. Who needs the most modern versions, just pays for MS Windows. Windows, like DOS before it, adapts to run certain apps more efficiently, to sidestep their bugs, or to fulfill their assumptions which generally do not hold. I suppose Wine does a lot of the same. It pays a lot of attention tp running old(er) popular software smoothly. I suppose Wine has more adjustments to run Office 2003 without a hitch than Win 12 does. Same for older popular games.
- meibo 4y ago
  To wine's biggest "stakeholder" at the moment(Valve), I'd argue that running modern applications is actually more important - but then again, that is with a focus on games, so apps like Office or Photoshop don't necessarily benefit that much from the improvements that the Codeweavers people work on for them.
- Koshkin 4y ago
  > The point of Wine is to run older Windows software. Is this really true? What “newer” Windows software would not run under Wine “in principle”? (And, for that matter, what older Windows software wouldn’t run on Windows itself?)
  - outworlder 4y ago
    It is not true at all.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    I've had older windows software require _extensive_ compatibility profile tuning to make it run at all, including disabling some device drivers, using the legacy scheduler to stop race conditions in IPC, etc.
  - chungy 4y ago
    I imagine GP conceived Wine as such because Wine has tended to have a greater chance of running older software than brand new software. This might be because Wine hasn't had the time to catch up with the latest APIs. But in short, no. Wine has a goal of running all Windows software, old and new.
- outworlder 4y ago
  > just pays for MS Windows. Paying for MS Windows is not a problem. If I could just throw money at Microsoft and have all the apps I need running on Linux, I would have. I suspect many people (and specially orgs) would have done that too. Incidentally, I have a copy of MS Windows. I just _don't want to boot Windows_ > It pays a lot of attention tp running old(er) popular software smoothly. Nah. It pays attention to popular software, period. Because that's how contributions normally work. The more people interested, the more likely a patch will land. It can take significant effort to run some software. That takes time. By the time it's running perfectly, it's "old" software. It just needs effort. One of the bad things about the Stadia demise is that some of the work done on the titles themselves benefit Wine. For example, Cyberpunk was perfectly playable on launch day.
  - aargh_aargh 4y ago
    > Incidentally, I have a copy of MS Windows. I just _don't want to boot Windows_ Might be incidental in your case, but not in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    Oh wow, Stadia is already dead ?! Google has "outdone" themselves !
- retrac 4y ago
  Basically, I don't want to run Windows. But I do want to run some current Windows software -- mostly games and design tools. I don't think I'm a major exception; I wonder if there have been any surveys. Linux users who want to run current Windows software are likely much of the user base. Lately I've been playing a recent DirectX 11 game via Wine. Worked out of the box. I think it might be a bit slower than under Windows natively, but that's sort of moot since it hits the cap at 60 fps either way. I've used Wine regularly for about 15 years. I used to be surprised when new software (especially DX-based) worked under Wine. These days, I'm more surprised when it doesn't.
  - nomel 4y ago
    What game is this? I haven’t seen a modern title, or monitor, capped to 60fps in over a decade. I think most mobile games go higher, these days.
    - angch 4y ago
      Elden Ring, for one.
      - nomel 4y ago
        Seems crazy that progress has been so slow. I was playing games at 1080p, 72Hz/fps, literaly 21 years ago. The only games with a lock were games with hilariously broken physics engines.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- Zardoz84 4y ago
  No
gerdesj 4y ago
MS are profit motivated (by definition) and Wine is functionality motivated (again by definition). MS are currently hell bent on getting you onto a cloud subscription for Windows as a service (WAAS) because that is their current business model. The Wine project is hell bent on delivering functionality that you want and they think you might want. Wine is less about shuffling the start menu to the middle of the taskbar because ... err wankery that makes it harder to find and actually click or poke at and making copy/cut/paste into really odd little icons on right click menus (no idea what sort of poke gets the right click menu). ... Sorry, I'm not a fan of the W11 UI. MS could not give a toss about you or your app (say an ancient db or a ancestor app). They need to generate profits and your old app ain't a profit centre. Anyway, wine is able to do what you actually want your machine to do - keep an old treasured app alive and more.
- pizza234 4y ago
  I'm no Windows fan, but this is not an accurate portrayal (d'oh!). Microsoft has historically put a huge amount of effort in (backwards) compatibility. Here's a famous example: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/windows-95-went-the-extra-mile-to-ensure-compatibility-of-simcity-other-games https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/windows-95-went-the-.... Related (sub) discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13450160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13450160. It's possible that they changed strategy recently, but there is a very long history of extraordinary (backwards) compatibility.
  - gerdesj 4y ago
    Linux will shortly remove support for DECNet. That's deprecating something responsibly. Your SimCity example was an easy win and yet more wankery. They have not put a huge amount of work in compatibility. MS have done just enough always and only enough. That is precisely what a large commercial business would do and they did.
    - anyfoo 4y ago
      I'm saying this as someone who does not care about Windows (or Microsoft) at all, and hasn't been using Windows besides maybe in a vm once a year for at least a decade now: To say they have done "just enough always and only enough" is massively underselling it to a level where it's basically wrong. Everyone who has been following Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing blog for some time knows the massive, quite impressive, and at times even "unreasonable" seeming work to keep things compatible. Especially, but not exclusively, in the Windows 95 days. Quite possibly that has changed in the last few years or even decade (I wouldn't know), but at least the claim that they never put a huge amount of work into compatibility is just not true. Here is just one of many articles that outlines some insanity that Windows did for compatibility, stuff where other OSes (including Linux, at least outside of the kernel) would have rightfully said that this software needs to be fixed instead: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160404-00/?p=93261 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160404-00/?p=93... - I found this one randomly after a cursory search, there were other articles that may prove the point even more. Raymond Chen did also state that the more things shifted to be "online", the more reasonable it became to let vendors fix issues with patches (often with MS's guidance) instead of doing insane tricks in the OS, but still: Credit where credit is due.
outworlder 4y ago
Windows APIs have a whole operating system to support, including all the new features. Microsoft rarely breaks backwards compatibility (so no 'sacrificial' APIs), but that doesn't mean there couldn't be some performance regressions or the like under newer versions. Windows went as far as changing COMMCTL32.DLL and similar just because of new Office versions. Wine "only" has to run apps and nothing else. The older APIs are the most battle-tested and optimized. On the other hand, you may find suboptimal behavior on newer APIs that weren't exercised enough.
keithnz 4y ago
what old windows programs from Vista/XP/2000 can't you run on Windows 11? It has "compatibility mode", just select properties on the program and select compatibility, and select the OS you want.
- metadat 4y ago
  What has been your experience with this method? It's not yet fixed a broken app for me. When the compatibility mode doesn't help, then what's a mere mortal to do?
- Maursault 4y ago
  Will old NT4 drivers work in Win11 compatibility mode? In another life I was a prepress operator. The RIP software only reliably ran on Windows NT4 on Alpha... can almost remember the... ah, yes, AGFA Apogee. Hardware replacement problems like this[1] were not uncommon (wow 2008! I was out of commercial printing by 2001.) But with NT4 on Alpha, once the software was installed, it never needed rebooted; it would just run until it died. Almost never hear about crazy uptimes with Windows, but, of course, RIPs only do one thing, but a lot of one thing. [1] https://printplanet.com/threads/can-apogee-works-on-windows-2000-3.3770/ https://printplanet.com/threads/can-apogee-works-on-windows-...
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Anything with directx won't work (or will work so slow to be unplayable).
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  DirectX8- programs run badly on Vista+
stephen_g 4y ago
One big thing for games is that Microsoft swapped out older DirectX libraries to be fairly poor emulations/translations instead of being handled directly by the graphics card. You can get better translation/emulation libraries that you can swap in to an application, like dgVoodo2 that can improve things hugely (but unfortunately buggy with some games). I think Wine's translation is also much better than Microsoft's for these older DX versions.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Yeah, software using DirectX8- is a crapshoot on Vista+ Windows, and often is too heavy (because 3D) to emulate. I haven't had much luck with Wine either...
quotemstr 4y ago
> What I'm curious about (and probably there are some good write ups about this somewhere) that how come modern Linux and modern Wine is better to run old Windows applications than modern Windows (7 to some extent but mostly 10&11). Is it? I fail to see a justification for accepting the premise of your question.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  That's an odd failure. The justification is in the second half of the paragraph. If you think this is non-representative or that the poster is a liar, fine, but their reason for asking the question is right there. > Like I use Windows every day and have no problems at all. And I use Linux every day too for work. But by my experience if I come around an old Windows application (Vista, XP, 2000 or before) then I probably have a better chance to run it as it meant to be on Linux w/ Wine than on Windows 10/11
bee_rider 4y ago
It is apparently possible to run Wine on WSL. https://liliputing.com/wine-on-windows-lets-you-run-windows-apps-on-windows-through-windows-subsystem-for-linux/ https://liliputing.com/wine-on-windows-lets-you-run-windows-... I wonder if you can run Cygwin on it.
- signaru 4y ago
  Wine on Windows is technically interesting, even if others might argue that it's pointless. At the very least, these are also good tests of how much compatibility the layers provide. There's also WineVDM that actually solves a "need" to run 16bit Windows programs on 64bit Windows. I've considered using it for retro programming without leaving a modern OS, although DosBox may be a more reliable option. Now, if Win32s can get to work on top of WineVDM, that would be funny.
  - dreen 4y ago
    Wine on Windows would be great for running some 90s Windows video games.
    - anthk 4y ago
      Wine D3D does exactly that.
  - anthk 4y ago
    There's WineD3D to map old Wine functions to ones from DLL's reimplemented from the Wine project, but without under Windows as there's no need of a loader, OFC.
- realjhol 4y ago
  This something I'm currently working on - for both Msys2 and Cygwin. https://gitlab.winehq.org/jhol/wine/-/commits/msys2-hacks-7/ https://gitlab.winehq.org/jhol/wine/-/commits/msys2-hacks-7/ There's a few low level issues to solve, but also theres bunch of patches around that never made it upstream that just need some love to get them up to standard. At this point Msys2 installs, we can run bash and install software using pacman (- with workabouts for varies janky problems).
lmm 4y ago
What kind of applications are they? I've had very much the opposite experience.
ntauthority 4y ago
A more interesting variant of your question would be 'how come Wine is better at running decades-old Windows software (on systems such as Linux) than Linux is at running decades-old Linux software on Linux?' ... perhaps Win32 is a more stable ABI/API by design.
- arminiusreturns 4y ago
  It may be time to reconsider recompiling from source as the preferred method over binary distribution.
  - ntauthority 4y ago
    This would be fine if not for even the canonical C/C++ compiler on GNU/Linux having issues building older versions of itself without patches, let alone other applications. As with older Windows binaries on newer Windows versions, when it doesn't work outright, there's always fixes - but that's not the point this subthread tries to discuss.
- spixy 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32471624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32471624
tracker1 4y ago
Most of the compatibility issues I've seen around Windows apps that fail to work seems to be changes/updates around security. A big one that I saw in the past around XP or 7 was that your general applications could no longer write to their Program Files location by default... there are many others over the years. MS has made a fair effort to maintain compatibility, but don't underestimate the power of developers to hard code something out of convenience that bites them in the rear once security contexts change from under you.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
I'm surprised that you would include Vista programs having trouble being run on Windows 10 : any examples ?

alar44 4y ago

My assumption is that it's because you're not running full blown Windows, Wine is just grabbing the stuff it needs.

johnny22 4y ago

it's way more likely to just be insufficient testing than anything on purpose imo. Those folks have deadlines just like everybody else.

nine_k 4y ago

The point of Wine is to run older Windows software. Who needs the most modern versions, just pays for MS Windows. Windows, like DOS before it, adapts to run certain apps more efficiently, to sidestep their bugs, or to fulfill their assumptions which generally do not hold. I suppose Wine does a lot of the same. It pays a lot of attention tp running old(er) popular software smoothly. I suppose Wine has more adjustments to run Office 2003 without a hitch than Win 12 does. Same for older popular games.

meibo 4y ago
To wine's biggest "stakeholder" at the moment(Valve), I'd argue that running modern applications is actually more important - but then again, that is with a focus on games, so apps like Office or Photoshop don't necessarily benefit that much from the improvements that the Codeweavers people work on for them.
Koshkin 4y ago
> The point of Wine is to run older Windows software. Is this really true? What “newer” Windows software would not run under Wine “in principle”? (And, for that matter, what older Windows software wouldn’t run on Windows itself?)
- outworlder 4y ago
  It is not true at all.
- danielheath 4y ago
  I've had older windows software require _extensive_ compatibility profile tuning to make it run at all, including disabling some device drivers, using the legacy scheduler to stop race conditions in IPC, etc.
- chungy 4y ago
  I imagine GP conceived Wine as such because Wine has tended to have a greater chance of running older software than brand new software. This might be because Wine hasn't had the time to catch up with the latest APIs. But in short, no. Wine has a goal of running all Windows software, old and new.
outworlder 4y ago
> just pays for MS Windows. Paying for MS Windows is not a problem. If I could just throw money at Microsoft and have all the apps I need running on Linux, I would have. I suspect many people (and specially orgs) would have done that too. Incidentally, I have a copy of MS Windows. I just _don't want to boot Windows_ > It pays a lot of attention tp running old(er) popular software smoothly. Nah. It pays attention to popular software, period. Because that's how contributions normally work. The more people interested, the more likely a patch will land. It can take significant effort to run some software. That takes time. By the time it's running perfectly, it's "old" software. It just needs effort. One of the bad things about the Stadia demise is that some of the work done on the titles themselves benefit Wine. For example, Cyberpunk was perfectly playable on launch day.
- aargh_aargh 4y ago
  > Incidentally, I have a copy of MS Windows. I just _don't want to boot Windows_ Might be incidental in your case, but not in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Oh wow, Stadia is already dead ?! Google has "outdone" themselves !
retrac 4y ago
Basically, I don't want to run Windows. But I do want to run some current Windows software -- mostly games and design tools. I don't think I'm a major exception; I wonder if there have been any surveys. Linux users who want to run current Windows software are likely much of the user base. Lately I've been playing a recent DirectX 11 game via Wine. Worked out of the box. I think it might be a bit slower than under Windows natively, but that's sort of moot since it hits the cap at 60 fps either way. I've used Wine regularly for about 15 years. I used to be surprised when new software (especially DX-based) worked under Wine. These days, I'm more surprised when it doesn't.
- nomel 4y ago
  What game is this? I haven’t seen a modern title, or monitor, capped to 60fps in over a decade. I think most mobile games go higher, these days.
  - angch 4y ago
    Elden Ring, for one.
    - nomel 4y ago
      Seems crazy that progress has been so slow. I was playing games at 1080p, 72Hz/fps, literaly 21 years ago. The only games with a lock were games with hilariously broken physics engines.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
Zardoz84 4y ago
No

gerdesj 4y ago

MS are profit motivated (by definition) and Wine is functionality motivated (again by definition). MS are currently hell bent on getting you onto a cloud subscription for Windows as a service (WAAS) because that is their current business model. The Wine project is hell bent on delivering functionality that you want and they think you might want. Wine is less about shuffling the start menu to the middle of the taskbar because ... err wankery that makes it harder to find and actually click or poke at and making copy/cut/paste into really odd little icons on right click menus (no idea what sort of poke gets the right click menu). ... Sorry, I'm not a fan of the W11 UI. MS could not give a toss about you or your app (say an ancient db or a ancestor app). They need to generate profits and your old app ain't a profit centre. Anyway, wine is able to do what you actually want your machine to do - keep an old treasured app alive and more.

pizza234 4y ago
I'm no Windows fan, but this is not an accurate portrayal (d'oh!). Microsoft has historically put a huge amount of effort in (backwards) compatibility. Here's a famous example: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/windows-95-went-the-extra-mile-to-ensure-compatibility-of-simcity-other-games https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/windows-95-went-the-.... Related (sub) discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13450160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13450160. It's possible that they changed strategy recently, but there is a very long history of extraordinary (backwards) compatibility.
- gerdesj 4y ago
  Linux will shortly remove support for DECNet. That's deprecating something responsibly. Your SimCity example was an easy win and yet more wankery. They have not put a huge amount of work in compatibility. MS have done just enough always and only enough. That is precisely what a large commercial business would do and they did.
  - anyfoo 4y ago
    I'm saying this as someone who does not care about Windows (or Microsoft) at all, and hasn't been using Windows besides maybe in a vm once a year for at least a decade now: To say they have done "just enough always and only enough" is massively underselling it to a level where it's basically wrong. Everyone who has been following Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing blog for some time knows the massive, quite impressive, and at times even "unreasonable" seeming work to keep things compatible. Especially, but not exclusively, in the Windows 95 days. Quite possibly that has changed in the last few years or even decade (I wouldn't know), but at least the claim that they never put a huge amount of work into compatibility is just not true. Here is just one of many articles that outlines some insanity that Windows did for compatibility, stuff where other OSes (including Linux, at least outside of the kernel) would have rightfully said that this software needs to be fixed instead: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160404-00/?p=93261 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160404-00/?p=93... - I found this one randomly after a cursory search, there were other articles that may prove the point even more. Raymond Chen did also state that the more things shifted to be "online", the more reasonable it became to let vendors fix issues with patches (often with MS's guidance) instead of doing insane tricks in the OS, but still: Credit where credit is due.

outworlder 4y ago

Windows APIs have a whole operating system to support, including all the new features. Microsoft rarely breaks backwards compatibility (so no 'sacrificial' APIs), but that doesn't mean there couldn't be some performance regressions or the like under newer versions. Windows went as far as changing COMMCTL32.DLL and similar just because of new Office versions. Wine "only" has to run apps and nothing else. The older APIs are the most battle-tested and optimized. On the other hand, you may find suboptimal behavior on newer APIs that weren't exercised enough.

keithnz 4y ago

what old windows programs from Vista/XP/2000 can't you run on Windows 11? It has "compatibility mode", just select properties on the program and select compatibility, and select the OS you want.

metadat 4y ago
What has been your experience with this method? It's not yet fixed a broken app for me. When the compatibility mode doesn't help, then what's a mere mortal to do?
Maursault 4y ago
Will old NT4 drivers work in Win11 compatibility mode? In another life I was a prepress operator. The RIP software only reliably ran on Windows NT4 on Alpha... can almost remember the... ah, yes, AGFA Apogee. Hardware replacement problems like this[1] were not uncommon (wow 2008! I was out of commercial printing by 2001.) But with NT4 on Alpha, once the software was installed, it never needed rebooted; it would just run until it died. Almost never hear about crazy uptimes with Windows, but, of course, RIPs only do one thing, but a lot of one thing. [1] https://printplanet.com/threads/can-apogee-works-on-windows-2000-3.3770/ https://printplanet.com/threads/can-apogee-works-on-windows-...
LtWorf 4y ago
Anything with directx won't work (or will work so slow to be unplayable).
BlueTemplar 4y ago
DirectX8- programs run badly on Vista+

stephen_g 4y ago

One big thing for games is that Microsoft swapped out older DirectX libraries to be fairly poor emulations/translations instead of being handled directly by the graphics card. You can get better translation/emulation libraries that you can swap in to an application, like dgVoodo2 that can improve things hugely (but unfortunately buggy with some games). I think Wine's translation is also much better than Microsoft's for these older DX versions.

BlueTemplar 4y ago
Yeah, software using DirectX8- is a crapshoot on Vista+ Windows, and often is too heavy (because 3D) to emulate. I haven't had much luck with Wine either...

quotemstr 4y ago

> What I'm curious about (and probably there are some good write ups about this somewhere) that how come modern Linux and modern Wine is better to run old Windows applications than modern Windows (7 to some extent but mostly 10&11). Is it? I fail to see a justification for accepting the premise of your question.

bee_rider 4y ago
That's an odd failure. The justification is in the second half of the paragraph. If you think this is non-representative or that the poster is a liar, fine, but their reason for asking the question is right there. > Like I use Windows every day and have no problems at all. And I use Linux every day too for work. But by my experience if I come around an old Windows application (Vista, XP, 2000 or before) then I probably have a better chance to run it as it meant to be on Linux w/ Wine than on Windows 10/11

bee_rider 4y ago

It is apparently possible to run Wine on WSL. https://liliputing.com/wine-on-windows-lets-you-run-windows-apps-on-windows-through-windows-subsystem-for-linux/ https://liliputing.com/wine-on-windows-lets-you-run-windows-... I wonder if you can run Cygwin on it.

signaru 4y ago
Wine on Windows is technically interesting, even if others might argue that it's pointless. At the very least, these are also good tests of how much compatibility the layers provide. There's also WineVDM that actually solves a "need" to run 16bit Windows programs on 64bit Windows. I've considered using it for retro programming without leaving a modern OS, although DosBox may be a more reliable option. Now, if Win32s can get to work on top of WineVDM, that would be funny.
- dreen 4y ago
  Wine on Windows would be great for running some 90s Windows video games.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Wine D3D does exactly that.
- anthk 4y ago
  There's WineD3D to map old Wine functions to ones from DLL's reimplemented from the Wine project, but without under Windows as there's no need of a loader, OFC.
realjhol 4y ago
This something I'm currently working on - for both Msys2 and Cygwin. https://gitlab.winehq.org/jhol/wine/-/commits/msys2-hacks-7/ https://gitlab.winehq.org/jhol/wine/-/commits/msys2-hacks-7/ There's a few low level issues to solve, but also theres bunch of patches around that never made it upstream that just need some love to get them up to standard. At this point Msys2 installs, we can run bash and install software using pacman (- with workabouts for varies janky problems).

lmm 4y ago

What kind of applications are they? I've had very much the opposite experience.

ntauthority 4y ago

A more interesting variant of your question would be 'how come Wine is better at running decades-old Windows software (on systems such as Linux) than Linux is at running decades-old Linux software on Linux?' ... perhaps Win32 is a more stable ABI/API by design.

arminiusreturns 4y ago
It may be time to reconsider recompiling from source as the preferred method over binary distribution.
- ntauthority 4y ago
  This would be fine if not for even the canonical C/C++ compiler on GNU/Linux having issues building older versions of itself without patches, let alone other applications. As with older Windows binaries on newer Windows versions, when it doesn't work outright, there's always fixes - but that's not the point this subthread tries to discuss.
spixy 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32471624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32471624

tracker1 4y ago

Most of the compatibility issues I've seen around Windows apps that fail to work seems to be changes/updates around security. A big one that I saw in the past around XP or 7 was that your general applications could no longer write to their Program Files location by default... there are many others over the years. MS has made a fair effort to maintain compatibility, but don't underestimate the power of developers to hard code something out of convenience that bites them in the rear once security contexts change from under you.

BlueTemplar 4y ago

I'm surprised that you would include Vista programs having trouble being run on Windows 10 : any examples ?