15 ms·

Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

250 points by isomorph 4y ago

mustafabisic1 4y ago
My childhood explained. Trying to do exactly this for my kids: "Because these assemblages are found in saliva, targeting them early on could be a therapeutic strategy to prevent childhood tooth decay, says Koo. “If you block this binding or disrupt the assemblage before it arrives on the tooth and causes damage, that could be a preventive strategy.”"
- numlocked 4y ago
  How? Do you just mean by good oral care practices from an early age? Or something more off the beaten path?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - EamonnMR 4y ago
    I assume they mean figuring out what mechanism they're using to bind and attacking it to prevent formation.
  - mustafabisic1 4y ago
    Sorry, my bad. When I wrote it, I realized it might imply I'm doing something special. I'm just doing the good oral care practices and it's working. My kid is going through dentists visits with flying colors. Not to jinx it.
    - CrHn3 4y ago
      Xylitol can inhibit multispecies biolfilms [1]. Colonization, from what I understand, is critical in the first year of life and as teeth erupt. Some people have bad teeth and good teeth regardless of their hygiene practices because of early colonization. Artificial sweeteners other than xylitol generally supply energy to undesirable bacteria. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19178100/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19178100/
dev_throw 4y ago
Sounds like advanced symbiosis. I wonder if the movement is across a gradient or whether the super organism has a control unit that makes decisions. Are we a result of similar microorganisms?
- anthk 4y ago
  Funghi can assemble themselves into a super-organism. Also, for fun: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20080-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20080-3 Get "The computational beauty of nature", too. And its repo. https://github.com/gwf/CBofN https://github.com/gwf/CBofN
- Maursault 4y ago
  > Are we a result of similar microorganisms? I think the answer to your question is probably "yes." I listened to an interesting show on PBS radio 30 Oct. about what happened 2Byo that jump-started evolution. I can't find the show online, which explained in depth, but this short and patronizing video[1] covers the gist of it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF5G2k45vY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF5G2k45vY
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- arnidg 4y ago
  > Are we a result of similar microorganisms? I'm no biologist, but from what I've read: Probably not. A really important fact about multicellular life is that each cell is genetically identical to any other cell in the organism. Otherwise, different cells will start competing with one another, until the relationship falls apart. In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproduction, and that always puts a limit to how close the cooperation can be (nothing close to forming multicellular life).
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproduction, and that always puts a limit to how close the cooperation can be (nothing close to forming multicellular life) Mitochondria is its own organism, has its own DNA that is separate and distinct from nuclear DNA. It has been very successful through very close cooperation.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis
actually_a_dog 4y ago
Literally the Cavity Creeps from the old Crest commercials: https://theretronetwork.com/retro-commercials-crest-team-vs-the-cavity-creeps/ https://theretronetwork.com/retro-commercials-crest-team-vs-...
- Maursault 4y ago
  Well done.
etiam 4y ago
Biofilms has been a noted phenomenon with microbiologists for at least a couple of decades, though I have to admit I haven't seen motility discussed as one of the functions before...
- busyant 4y ago
  You might find these videos interesting. Pattern formation by motile E. coli. http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/labs/bacteria/movies/showmovie.php?mov=plate_pattern_3 http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/labs/bacteria/movies/showmovi... edit: here's a reference https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7596432/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7596432/ Berg died about 10 months ago.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
I for one welcome our new multicellular, cross-kingdom assemblages overlords.
- chasil 4y ago
  I for one would prefer a toothpaste with the latest phage therapy to turn these little copulators violently inside out. Burn, baby, burn! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580409/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580409/ https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/mic.0.000539 https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/1...
- waynecochran 4y ago
  This blows my mind, I just this last week learned about xenobots on Lex Fridman's podcast with Michael Levin. I had no idea how fast evolution can work...
fbdab103 4y ago
Years ago, I recall reading about a putative Cavity Vaccine which was a bateriophage which targeted the tiny fraction of species present in the mouth responsible for tooth decay. Supposedly, a one time inoculation would confer lifelong protection. It has been decades and I have not heard anything more about this. Big Dentist keeping the research down or was there some "in mice" kind of gotcha which limited the treatment?
- nerdponx 4y ago
  With the headlines like that, it's usually safe to assume the latter. I remember reading in Popular Science on and off for years (00s) about all kinds of innovations that were right around the corner ('10-15 or so), much of which still remains firmly in "maybe one day" stage. Maybe a bunch of things didn't come to pass that I don't remember, but I clearly remember a lot of articles about air travel (delta wings everywhere!) and commercial space travel (Burt Rutan!). For a sense of how low my expectations got, I remember reading about the Boeing 7E7 and being surprised when a new generation of airliners was in fact coming out. That experience has been born out many times since, in my adult life. I've all but completely stopped following "science journalism" as a result. I'll hear about it when it actually happens.
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  I tracked down the guy who invented this, if this is the version you're thinking of, and wrote him. It wasn't a vaccine so much as it was a replacement of your oral flora and fauna with a non-cavity causing bacteria. This was maybe twelve years ago, but he said essentially that the FDA really really really didn't like the idea, and he had to sell off bits and pieces of the concept.
  - cosmojg 4y ago
    This sounds amazing! Got any more info? Where can I find this guy and his patents? I wonder if I can whip something up at home...
    - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bmau5 4y ago
The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like incorporating arginine into diets and possibly oral care products [2]. Source: founder of an oral microbiome testing company [3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5122233 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5122233 [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0121835 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [3] https://www.bristlehealth.com/ https://www.bristlehealth.com/
- sooheon 4y ago
  Is there an ETA on global shipping?
  - bmau5 4y ago
    We're working on this right now! If you send us an email at info[at]bristlehealth.com I'll send over more information shortly.
- pnw 4y ago
  Interesting company! Are there any commercial oral care products with arginine in them? What’s your opinion on the toothpaste with lysine supplements and the oral probiotics for gum care?
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    Is arginine necessary to apply topically to the teeth, or can it just be ingested? If the latter, you can get l-arginine supplements easily. They are also supposed to help with certain, um, circulation issues. Also, xylitol is a great biofilm disrupter. Chewing xylitol gum has been shown to be beneficial in preventing carries.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth. No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right. And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities. I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor dental hygiene, and not a single cavity until our teens. I’m not saying it’s because of this organism or any specific thing. But I cannot shake the feeling that something significant has changed in the last 30 years.
- Choco31415 4y ago
  My teeth were always complimented by the dentist as being beautiful. This is despite plenty of juice, candy, snacks, no special diet, etc, outside of regular dental cleanings and making sure to spend proper time brushing each tooth. I’m 24. Maybe something else is at play?
- sidlls 4y ago
  Could be something has changed, or else something else is at work. I had wretched teeth throughout my youth and through my late 20s. I have 8 or 9 crowns maybe 16 teeth, a few with fillings; some were pulled for orthodontic work. Then about 10 years ago I stopped regular dental hygiene practices: I brush my teeth once a day (most days) and rarely floss. Haven't had a "watch" in years since I dropped the practice of flossing once a day and brushing twice. My breath isn't foul smelling, either, except when I have tonsil stones (which is rare these days). Maybe for me the hygiene disrupted whatever was in my mouth that was disrupting the bad bacteria.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    I’ve flirted with conspiracy-like thoughts on the dental industry and how they might be “confidently wrong” about things the way the rest of the medical industry famously has been on numerous topics over the centuries. I wondered (with absolutely no basis in fact) things like, “maybe the calcified tartar forms a barrier?”
jonnycomputer 4y ago
Now you know what's goin' on when your gums itch. (:
alvarezbjm-hn 4y ago
I am here to remind everyone that the single most important oral hygiene measure is to brush your teeth after each meal. That includes not eating anything between meals. Then comes using toothpaste. Then comes visiting your dentist regularly. Them comes everything else, that includes fluorine.. If you aren't brushing your teeth when needed, the rest is almost wasted.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  > I am here to remind everyone that the single most important oral hygiene measure is to brush your teeth after each meal. Brushing your teeth right after is actually harmful for your teeth. Your outer layer of your teeth get softer after contact with most foods. It takes a while (40+ minutes) for your spit to harden them again. So the brushing will wear this outer layer down if you're always doing it right after the meal.
mrdhanz 4y ago
otikik 4y ago
Wasn’t there a vaccine for this kind of thing already developed, years ago?
MorganClara 4y ago

250 points by isomorph 4y ago

My childhood explained. Trying to do exactly this for my kids: "Because these assemblages are found in saliva, targeting them early on could be a therapeutic strategy to prevent childhood tooth decay, says Koo. “If you block this binding or disrupt the assemblage before it arrives on the tooth and causes damage, that could be a preventive strategy.”"

numlocked 4y ago
How? Do you just mean by good oral care practices from an early age? Or something more off the beaten path?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- EamonnMR 4y ago
  I assume they mean figuring out what mechanism they're using to bind and attacking it to prevent formation.
- mustafabisic1 4y ago
  Sorry, my bad. When I wrote it, I realized it might imply I'm doing something special. I'm just doing the good oral care practices and it's working. My kid is going through dentists visits with flying colors. Not to jinx it.
  - CrHn3 4y ago
    Xylitol can inhibit multispecies biolfilms [1]. Colonization, from what I understand, is critical in the first year of life and as teeth erupt. Some people have bad teeth and good teeth regardless of their hygiene practices because of early colonization. Artificial sweeteners other than xylitol generally supply energy to undesirable bacteria. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19178100/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19178100/

dev_throw 4y ago

Sounds like advanced symbiosis. I wonder if the movement is across a gradient or whether the super organism has a control unit that makes decisions. Are we a result of similar microorganisms?

anthk 4y ago
Funghi can assemble themselves into a super-organism. Also, for fun: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20080-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20080-3 Get "The computational beauty of nature", too. And its repo. https://github.com/gwf/CBofN https://github.com/gwf/CBofN
Maursault 4y ago
> Are we a result of similar microorganisms? I think the answer to your question is probably "yes." I listened to an interesting show on PBS radio 30 Oct. about what happened 2Byo that jump-started evolution. I can't find the show online, which explained in depth, but this short and patronizing video[1] covers the gist of it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF5G2k45vY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhF5G2k45vY
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
arnidg 4y ago
> Are we a result of similar microorganisms? I'm no biologist, but from what I've read: Probably not. A really important fact about multicellular life is that each cell is genetically identical to any other cell in the organism. Otherwise, different cells will start competing with one another, until the relationship falls apart. In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproduction, and that always puts a limit to how close the cooperation can be (nothing close to forming multicellular life).
- Maursault 4y ago
  > In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproduction, and that always puts a limit to how close the cooperation can be (nothing close to forming multicellular life) Mitochondria is its own organism, has its own DNA that is separate and distinct from nuclear DNA. It has been very successful through very close cooperation.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis

actually_a_dog 4y ago

Literally the Cavity Creeps from the old Crest commercials: https://theretronetwork.com/retro-commercials-crest-team-vs-the-cavity-creeps/ https://theretronetwork.com/retro-commercials-crest-team-vs-...

Maursault 4y ago
Well done.

etiam 4y ago

Biofilms has been a noted phenomenon with microbiologists for at least a couple of decades, though I have to admit I haven't seen motility discussed as one of the functions before...

busyant 4y ago
You might find these videos interesting. Pattern formation by motile E. coli. http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/labs/bacteria/movies/showmovie.php?mov=plate_pattern_3 http://www.rowland.harvard.edu/labs/bacteria/movies/showmovi... edit: here's a reference https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7596432/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7596432/ Berg died about 10 months ago.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

I for one welcome our new multicellular, cross-kingdom assemblages overlords.

chasil 4y ago
I for one would prefer a toothpaste with the latest phage therapy to turn these little copulators violently inside out. Burn, baby, burn! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580409/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580409/ https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/mic.0.000539 https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/1...
waynecochran 4y ago
This blows my mind, I just this last week learned about xenobots on Lex Fridman's podcast with Michael Levin. I had no idea how fast evolution can work...

fbdab103 4y ago

Years ago, I recall reading about a putative Cavity Vaccine which was a bateriophage which targeted the tiny fraction of species present in the mouth responsible for tooth decay. Supposedly, a one time inoculation would confer lifelong protection. It has been decades and I have not heard anything more about this. Big Dentist keeping the research down or was there some "in mice" kind of gotcha which limited the treatment?

nerdponx 4y ago
With the headlines like that, it's usually safe to assume the latter. I remember reading in Popular Science on and off for years (00s) about all kinds of innovations that were right around the corner ('10-15 or so), much of which still remains firmly in "maybe one day" stage. Maybe a bunch of things didn't come to pass that I don't remember, but I clearly remember a lot of articles about air travel (delta wings everywhere!) and commercial space travel (Burt Rutan!). For a sense of how low my expectations got, I remember reading about the Boeing 7E7 and being surprised when a new generation of airliners was in fact coming out. That experience has been born out many times since, in my adult life. I've all but completely stopped following "science journalism" as a result. I'll hear about it when it actually happens.
at_a_remove 4y ago
I tracked down the guy who invented this, if this is the version you're thinking of, and wrote him. It wasn't a vaccine so much as it was a replacement of your oral flora and fauna with a non-cavity causing bacteria. This was maybe twelve years ago, but he said essentially that the FDA really really really didn't like the idea, and he had to sell off bits and pieces of the concept.
- cosmojg 4y ago
  This sounds amazing! Got any more info? Where can I find this guy and his patents? I wonder if I can whip something up at home...
  - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bmau5 4y ago

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like incorporating arginine into diets and possibly oral care products [2]. Source: founder of an oral microbiome testing company [3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5122233 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5122233 [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0121835 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [3] https://www.bristlehealth.com/ https://www.bristlehealth.com/

sooheon 4y ago
Is there an ETA on global shipping?
- bmau5 4y ago
  We're working on this right now! If you send us an email at info[at]bristlehealth.com I'll send over more information shortly.
pnw 4y ago
Interesting company! Are there any commercial oral care products with arginine in them? What’s your opinion on the toothpaste with lysine supplements and the oral probiotics for gum care?
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  Is arginine necessary to apply topically to the teeth, or can it just be ingested? If the latter, you can get l-arginine supplements easily. They are also supposed to help with certain, um, circulation issues. Also, xylitol is a great biofilm disrupter. Chewing xylitol gum has been shown to be beneficial in preventing carries.

Waterluvian 4y ago

Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth. No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right. And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities. I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor dental hygiene, and not a single cavity until our teens. I’m not saying it’s because of this organism or any specific thing. But I cannot shake the feeling that something significant has changed in the last 30 years.

Choco31415 4y ago
My teeth were always complimented by the dentist as being beautiful. This is despite plenty of juice, candy, snacks, no special diet, etc, outside of regular dental cleanings and making sure to spend proper time brushing each tooth. I’m 24. Maybe something else is at play?
sidlls 4y ago
Could be something has changed, or else something else is at work. I had wretched teeth throughout my youth and through my late 20s. I have 8 or 9 crowns maybe 16 teeth, a few with fillings; some were pulled for orthodontic work. Then about 10 years ago I stopped regular dental hygiene practices: I brush my teeth once a day (most days) and rarely floss. Haven't had a "watch" in years since I dropped the practice of flossing once a day and brushing twice. My breath isn't foul smelling, either, except when I have tonsil stones (which is rare these days). Maybe for me the hygiene disrupted whatever was in my mouth that was disrupting the bad bacteria.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  I’ve flirted with conspiracy-like thoughts on the dental industry and how they might be “confidently wrong” about things the way the rest of the medical industry famously has been on numerous topics over the centuries. I wondered (with absolutely no basis in fact) things like, “maybe the calcified tartar forms a barrier?”

jonnycomputer 4y ago

Now you know what's goin' on when your gums itch. (:

alvarezbjm-hn 4y ago

I am here to remind everyone that the single most important oral hygiene measure is to brush your teeth after each meal. That includes not eating anything between meals. Then comes using toothpaste. Then comes visiting your dentist regularly. Them comes everything else, that includes fluorine.. If you aren't brushing your teeth when needed, the rest is almost wasted.

411111111111111 4y ago
> I am here to remind everyone that the single most important oral hygiene measure is to brush your teeth after each meal. Brushing your teeth right after is actually harmful for your teeth. Your outer layer of your teeth get softer after contact with most foods. It takes a while (40+ minutes) for your spit to harden them again. So the brushing will wear this outer layer down if you're always doing it right after the meal.

mrdhanz 4y ago

otikik 4y ago

Wasn’t there a vaccine for this kind of thing already developed, years ago?

MorganClara 4y ago